Get Paid What You Are Worth! with Kevin Ou

For this episode, we speak to Kevin Ou, Development / Executive Producer of The Lumenere Group. We discuss the freelancer mindset and how freelancers can negotiate and market themselves to get paid what they are worth. An entrepreneur with the heart of a philanthropist, Kevin Ou is on a mission to create beauty and incredible change in the world. Kevin has transcended his vision as a Celebrity photographer to developing business ventures that expand boundaries and provide innovative progress around him. Kevin’s intuition for developing companies, lead to the birth of The Lumenere Group. Originally launched in Los Angeles, the agency quickly became Asia’s definitive Celebrity Marketing firm.

Jayce: Thank you so much Kevin, thanks for joining us on the show. Hello audience, welcome back to yet another series of our podcast. I’m Jayce and this is…

Fanny: I’m Fanny.

Jayce: So, welcome to The Freelancer Exchange where every week we will speak to different freelancers, to understand more about their freelance career and, of course, the gig economy, and today we are very, very honoured and very fortunate to have Kevin.

Kevin: Thanks for having me.

Jayce: Thank you Kevin. Maybe I’ll let Kevin introduce a bit about himself.

Kevin: Do you want the condensed version, or the long version?

Fanny: The long version.

Kevin: Okay. So, I started off as a photographer, as you guys know. My forte was always celebrities and personalities, right? So, always part of that freelancer gig economy, but eventually realised that I could provide more value because I sought in the celebrity field, ever since I got back to Asia, people and big companies have been asking me to book celebrities.

So, the first few, I kind of did for free and after a while I was like, “Why am I working for free?” So, all of a sudden, I started an agency that we connect brands in Asia with international celebrities for branding and marketing purposes.

I think that’s when the concept of providing value to clients really kicked in, because you can either see it as a skillset, as you’re just booking talent, or you can see it as you’re helping companies grow in value or expand into new markets. All of a sudden, when you realise that you can increase the market share or growth or reach of a company, then, what is your time worth?

Moving forward, both in work and personal philosophy, I’m always looking at the value that you can provide clients. 

So, now that we understand that model, between helping different clients and even developing our own internal portfolio companies, we are using that philosophy and ever since we’ve done that, a lot of clients are attaching themselves to us because we’re not just an agency retainer model where we, kind of work for you, we have skin in the game. We come in and help them grow, but we are attaching ourselves as a partner and we grow together. I think that’s the biggest change that I’ve had in the freelance model so far.

Jayce: That’s interesting. So, Kevin, you started out as a freelance photographer, not in Singapore, right? In the US?

Kevin: That’s right. I started off in LA and New York but started working internationally fairly quickly. 

Thankfully, I’ve seen business models and seen how different people work around the world. I think the US model is definitely a little bit more aggressive, because markets are so big, you have to be a little bit more aggressive. Ever since I got back to Asia, people have actually been telling me to calm down, because maybe Asian business models are a little bit more conservative. 

So, I’m, kind of, learning the blend of both because culture is very important as well. You don’t want to overdo things, it has to be a match to the market as well.

Fanny: I guess a lot of freelancers in Singapore may have the question, that Singapore is too small, they want to venture out, but how do they make their first move?

Kevin: You know what? I don’t believe that anymore. The world is getting smaller with social media, with a lot of different online platforms. You don’t have to work here in Singapore. Even a simple platform like Fiver or Freelancer, a client from the US or Russia could be hiring someone here to be able to handle a task. So, even on that very basic level, I think that whole mindset of, “I’m based in Singapore, I have to work in Singapore,” that’s a very old mindset.

Jayce: We known Kevin, since 2015, [since Kevin was here on our SG50 project, but by then you were already fairly successful, coming back from the US, an entrepreneur who owns several companies. So, between working as an individual and working as an owner, or rather a creative entrepreneur, what is the key difference that can actually help an individual make the transition from operating as a single entity into the owner of several different companies?

Kevin: To me I feel that the skillset is very, very similar. The only difference between working for a client and working for yourself is really funding, because when you work for a client, it’s easy because at least you’re getting some money to get by and pay your bills, whereas, working for yourself, if you’re developing your own thing, that initial subset money has to come from somewhere. So, if you’re lucky enough to have made money to invest in your own company, that’s one thing, or friends, family put money into your company and then you grow, that’s another way of doing it.

At the end of the day, I think that’s what excites me, because it’s not about working for a client or working for your own company, it’s really that skillset. If you are excited, you know what you can do and you’re just excited to apply it, then really, there’s so many different outlets where you can apply yourself. So, it really just starts on that mindset. 

Jayce: So, having experienced the US culture and then, now coming back home, in a sense, a more Asian culture, how would you actually compare the two different cultures that you’re experiencing right now?

Fanny: And do you think that having overseas exposure experience has helped your career so far?

Kevin: Yeah, I definitely think so. I think any experience that you have can always be internalised and used to your benefit. I think, thankfully, from a very young age, from family, my dad was in the army, so we got to travel around quite a lot, but that proved to have a very open international mindset. 

But today, I think a lot of people, through YouTube, social media and stuff like that, you can learn. Just because, I think, maybe you’re not as fortunate, you can’t travel, doesn’t mean you’re at a disadvantage. I think the world is becoming so small between media, social media, forums and stuff, there are so many learning opportunities.

So, I think, if you say, “Just because I’m not this, I’m not that,” and then you hold there, that really is just a story you tell yourself. But yes, that international or just that mindset of seeing the different markets is very beneficial because while you’re in the US, you see a lot of companies trying to bridge into Asia, because China was the big thing, right? And then, once you’re back in Asia you see something very different, because you see the companies in Asia trying to bridge to the US. So, all of a sudden, both sides are trying to do the same thing. So, all of a sudden, I saw the value of being in the middle. You facilitate direction for both ways.

Essentially, that’s where my value is, because I have businesses in the US and also partners and clients here in Asia, my job is really trying to connect both of them and then, as we connect both, it’s how do we bring value and growth to both sides?

Jayce: Do you think there is a difference for creatives who are actually coming from Singapore versus creatives coming from other parts of Asia, how do you compare us in that sense? Do you think we have more room to grow, just because we come from a place where there seems to be better education and we’re bilingual or do you think that the future is actually more in the creative craft, not so much in understanding the international way of working, if you get what I mean?

Kevin: I understand, yeah. It’s interesting because Singapore is a very, how would you say that? Education first, they value education over creativity. Unfortunately, creativity can manifest itself in many different ways. Even in business, in terms of structuring different business deals, creativity and thinking outside of the box is very crucial as well. 

So, I think, previously we talked about an accountability model, which, sort of, my company adopts. It’s just very different from what a lot of companies do. What we do as an accountability model is, we don’t just take retainers, we sometimes waive a portion of our retainers for a stake in the backend. So, whether it’s equity or in terms of sales. You can only do that if you’re confident in the value that you’re providing.

So, basically, yes, we may not make as much on the frontend, but if we succeed on the different KPIs in the backend, that’s where we benefit. To clients, they have a partner that they’re going to work with, instead of just an agency that they’re paying. 

So, because of that, the approach, the working style, all of that stuff is very different and that only comes if you have a creative way of solving this problem. I think, with a lot of agencies and a lot of clients, because of the agency model, whether you sit on your ass or whether you’re working, the agency doesn’t know, and our company benefits if we’re charging a retainer, but if you’re using, let’s say an accountability model, that in itself is a creative manifestation of how to handle business. That’s very interesting, because all of a sudden, now, you have invested skin in the game and agencies work with you, it’s more of a collaborative effort.

So, I think this is just one example. In the world there are so many other ways of looking at this, and if you look at a lot of your funding deals, your VC deals, even a creative way of solving a project, I think Singapore, I think that’s what they need to do. Embrace that creative part as well as the education and then have that paired together, because you can’t have too much of one side. If you have too much creative then you get lost in the clouds, and then in the business sense of things it’s very hard to proceed, right? If you’re too structured in the business side of things, you’re too stuck that you won’t find creative ways of solving a problem better, that not one side benefits, but both sides benefit. So, I think that is the problem Singapore has.

Jayce: Do you think it’s very rare for a creative, because you yourself started as a creative photographer, for a creative to have a business mindset instead of something that you learn along the way? Because we always hear creatives say, “I’m a creative. Don’t talk to me about money. I don’t know about dollars,” that kind of expression, so is that something that you learn along the way?

Kevin: Thankfully, I think this was taught to me, I think downloaded to me by several professionals at a very young age. I think what was actually said was, “There are two types of photographers in this world,” and when I use photographers, they can be very interchangeable to designers, architects, any other positions. There are people that are very skilled, very talented, but without a business sense, no one knows who they are. Or, you could be a mediocre talent, but with a lot of business sense, and funny enough, these are the people that succeed. 

I don’t think I’m the most talented, there are tons of other people way more talented than me, but because I understood this concept very early, I didn’t just focus on the creative, I spent some time reading and understanding the business side of things as well. 

So, just like I said, I think having the balance of both, that’s how you really succeed.

Fanny: That’s a very honest statement.

Kevin: I don’t think I’m the most talented but because I know, maybe, enough PR that you can take whatever skills you have and then push it out, then at least people know about you. There’s no point being the best at anything and no one has ever heard of you, you will never…

Jayce: Do you think that mindset is very important to freelancers as well?

Kevin: Absolutely. The mindset of having that balance is very important. Many people have found creative ways around that. Let’s say, if I’m a creative and I only want to be a creative, then find a partner that’s very good at marketing, because the marketing guys see you as a product that they can sell and then you are the creative behind the scenes.

Like I said, you don’t have to be… everyone is very different. So, understanding the creative way of solving it, I think that’s the most important thing.

Fanny: How do you think freelancing has changed from decades ago to now? 

Kevin: The freelance market has changed so significantly, I think, with the internet opening it up to things being very global. Company wise, I’m a creative, I stick up for creatives, but even then, sometimes we find amazing creatives on Fiver, Freelancer, that are doing it at $5, $10 and amazing work. Good enough for what we need it to be and we’re paying $5 or $10. How do you expect someone that’s trying to make a living…? 

A lot of these people are from Russia, India, where $5 or $10 goes a very long way, that is actually a substantial pay for them. So, even now, part of our company, we use a lot of virtual assistants, Philippines, Indian, Russian, and our monthly tab comes up to $1,000, $2,000 and this is us with a team of 4 or 5 people. $1,000 doesn’t buy you anything here.

A lot of that, you can either complain about it or you can figure out a way around it. 

I think the first step is to realise that all this is happening. If you refuse to believe that all of this happening and you keep on that same path, you’re not going to get anywhere. If you understand this and you can understand, then you can come up with that creative model on how to solve it.

An example: Let’s say if you hire teams from the Philippines, India, language becomes a problem. So, an opportunity would be project managers to be inserted, then you can use them as the working modules, but the front facing, client side, you can always be the front facing client side.

So, I think that is a very creative way. Keeping your budgets low, you can come up with the creatives, but a lot of that execution can be done by a lot of outside teams.

Jayce: Actually, even for us with our Creatives at Work, where we are doing business, where we are [unclear 00:16:38], we see a lot of clients are more open now to actually try out new models, because with the internet, social media, things are moving so fast, so they don’t need to perfectly execute the perfect design, they just want to turn it around fast enough so that they can actually put it up the next day. So, I think this has actually changed the mindset of a lot of the clients as well, they are more open to using outside resources like this to actually help them to leverage. 

But, of course, on the other flipside, then we hear a lot of the creative freelancers saying that it’s the standard of living unfortunately, that they have to actually factor into their costing, they may seem to be overcharging, comparing themselves to their neighbouring countries. 

So, on that note, what would you advise the freelancers who are based in Singapore to actually manage this better? What do you think would help them to actually provide added value that the client will say, “Okay, I don’t mind paying you more, because this is the value I’m getting back”?

Kevin: I think that answer is very easy, at least for me. You can never fight with, not skillset but price per hour, because a lot of the freelancer mindset at this moment is about, “You need a picture. I charge 10 hours,” and they charge per hour. So, I think that’s a very old mindset and you can’t fight with people in India, a lot of the third world countries, the smaller emerging markets, they’re definitely going to be cheaper.

So, where I see the value is, is in terms of providing value, because at the end of the day, clients are very result orientated, that process, how you get it done, I don’t care. Basically, I just care about the end result, it needs to be, obviously, of good quality. 

But then, if you take it a step further, this project, what value does it provide the client? If you can understand that value, that is where the big money comes in, because if you can help a client grow their market share by 10% for example, and that 10% is $10 million, if you ask for 1% of the backend equity, they will definitely give it to you because if they can make 99%, they’ll definitely give you 1% or 10%, or whatever you ask for.

So, really that value is what a lot of freelancers need to be focusing on. If they can figure out what value they can provide, figure out how they can benefit a company or help a company grow. 

Different companies have various KPIs or goals, so I think the first step is really understanding and listening to what the company’s goals are, because even from a company’s standpoint, what tends to happen is, they are very task orientated. A lot of briefs that we go in, it’s really, “I need a picture.” A creative can ask, “Why do you need a picture?” That already starts unlocking, “We need this picture because we need to do a campaign to reach out to 100 million people,” for example. Then, all of a sudden, that focus shifts. If I, as a creative, can figure out how to bring you that 100 reach, then all of a sudden, my solution and my value increases. Then the tools that I use now are very different. I can still use the skillsets that I’m using but my solution pitch to the client is very different now. Obviously, if I can save the client running in 10 different directions, with one source I can do that, if you’re a client, how much would you pay me for that?

Fanny: Yeah.

Jayce: That’s right.

Kevin: That’s something that very few people do nowadays. I think the freelancing mindset is still very task orientated.

Fanny: Yes, it is.

Jayce: Yeah. But increasingly, as well, we also see a lot of the young creative professionals, they try to do everything, but of course, then talking about whether they have a specific craft, that is something that becomes very difficult for them to [unclear 00:20:58]. For example, now, with smartphones, everybody can take a picture, and everybody can upload it onto Instagram, everybody can call themselves a photographer.

So, for yourself, because you’ve gone through formal training and then you have a hard time… Well, you go through a proper learning procedure, I would say, to become a professional photographer. But do this group of young people, who come out without proper training and yet call themselves a photographer or a freelance photographer to get jobs and things like that, how would you advise this group of people with the current technology, how would you encourage them to further improve themselves so that they really become a professional photographer, rather than a shoot and go kind of freelancers?

Kevin: Okay, that is a very loaded thing. I’m actually excited because I think, being a professional photographer, and you’re right, a lot of the younger guys… Because it used to be as a professional photographer my professional camera would be $30,000 or $50,000. A very small subset of people had the ability to become photographers. 

Now, with cell phones, especially with a lot of the campaigns nowadays are digital campaigns, so you don’t need a large camera. If you look at a lot of the influencers, a lot of the Instagram, Facebook stuff that’s creative on forums, they’re amazing. So, to a lot of agencies, “I really don’t need that $30,000… I don’t care that you have it because at the end of the day the picture just needs to be good enough.”

The mindset was, previously, when we created campaigns, we spent a lot of money on it because the shelf life for a campaign is 6 months, 12 months, there’s value in it. So, a lot of the campaigns nowadays, sometimes campaigns are being shot for instant stories, last 24 hours. So, if a campaign lasts for 24 hours, why should I spend hundreds of thousands on it? The mindset really, just needs to be good enough nowadays. Sometimes, and honestly, I’ve seen some people shooting for amateurs, younger guys, I’m even blown away.

So, I think photographers that try to come in and compete on price, you can’t win, it’s very hard. But, once again, with that value, if you can figure a way to solve problems or tell stories and be effective in the message, because anyone can shoot a picture, it’s very easy, phone-click. But, let’s say, if I’m selling apparel, the basic knowledge or certain skillsets about compositions, leading lines, and you force a viewer’s eye to look at exactly what they want, those skillsets are still very invaluable. So, although there may be a million photographers in the world, the people that have the skillsets to control someone’s eye, that is a very small skillset, a very small subset.

So, if our younger photographer wants to learn, those are the key things. Forget about technology. Technology will always keep changing and there will always be a lot of competitors. But if you are very effective in what you do, instead of a viewer taking ten seconds to digest a message, if your shot if very clear, you know exactly, and that same message is told effectively in one second, they can tell it, that’s where your value comes from. 

Especially in this day and age, your attention span, I think the latest count was like three seconds, people are not going to look at traditional pictures for a long while anymore, you really have one or two seconds to be able to digest the message nowadays.

More than just traditional photography, I think there’s many ways of digital storytelling nowadays. Whether it’s a still picture or a moving visual nowadays, it doesn’t cost a company any different to post a picture on Instagram. 

I think a lot of photographers need to bust out of that, just a static picture mindset and be able to embrace the different ways of telling stories as well, because a lot of, and this is an actual thing nowadays, a lot of, you know boomerang stories, like Cinemagraph, and all of this stuff? People use it for fun in Instagram and stuff like that, but a lot of the corporates are all looking for similar ways to tell their corporate stories, but funny enough, in almost the entire market there’s no one creating that professionally, why is that so? If a photographer understood this and created that and are able to tell corporate or commercial stories, using contemporary styles and tools, they’ll have a lot of work. No one is catching up to that.

Jayce: One of the common, I would say, feedback or comments that we’ve had from freelancers is they have no time for this because they are so busy with [unclear 00:26:10] their craft, so they have no time to monitor the trends, how they can change themselves to actually…

Fanny: I think another way are the clients in Singapore, because they’re not open to that sometimes. Even if we were to propose to them something different, they would be like, “Oh, no, no, no, let’s do it this way.”

Kevin: I think that’s where I disagree with you guys. We’re talking about the craft, right?

Jayce: Yeah.

Kevin: So, a lot of these modern-day storytelling tools is the craft, it’s just an evolution of photography. I mean, photography is traditionally, like still picture mindset, but there’s no value in still pictures anymore. There is a value but there’s many other ways. 

So, when you’re talking about craft, a photographer that can understand all these various ways of… So, it’s not just a sightline thing, that is their main craft, and a lot of corporate companies are actually looking for people to create this. They are. I wouldn’t say all, I think the ones that understand it and get it, because these are effective tools of communication, they understand it, they have to use modern tools to connect with modern audiences. 

So, the clients that don’t get it are stuck in the old world where still photography must be still photography. There’s not value in just keeping it still anymore. There’s a lot more value in digital moving pictures that still tell that same story, but no one is providing that as a service. 

So, the first photographer that… Actually, I’m encouraging a lot of the people I’ve mentored to, kind of, move into this already because in corporate storytelling, whether it’s a B2B, internal or even external front facing, a lot of companies are putting this out as a requirement, but I can tell you, very few people are focused on that, because everyone thinks it’s a fun tool. Why does it have to be a fun tool? The first person that can, kind of have a corporate structure, do it convincingly with a high level of production, but still use this modern day digital tools, that’s it. 

But, don’t get stuck in the digital way of storytelling, because in two years, all of these tools, I’m sure there’s going to be a new wave of tools coming up. 

So, that craft, I think, is growing quicker than ever. Previously, as a photographer, maybe yes, new cameras will come up, but the basics were always there. But now, that growth of technology is growing faster than ever.

Jayce: You mentioned that you also mentor young photographers, you run several businesses and I also understand you have a new family member coming as well, so how do you actually allocate your time or juggle your time among all of those different, life-changing experiences?

Kevin: Just be a vampire, don’t sleep.

Jayce: Really:

Kevin: I think it really comes down to passion. It’s not just a job for me, I think I’m genuinely excited about all the different things that I do. People have many different outlets. To me, this is my outlet. I’m genuinely excited. When I sit down in front of a computer or with a client, I’m genuinely excited to share, I’m genuinely excited.

If someone goes drinking and partying, that’s their time off. For me, what gets me excited is this, because I’m such a workaholic. But, I think to me, being able to create something out of nothing and seeing things materialise, that is my biggest kick. So, whether it’s in terms of projects or in terms of companies, seeing it succeed, I think I’m genuinely excited about this.

Fanny: Have you ever suffered burnout?

Kevin: Yeah. I think, when I was younger, I’d definitely do that. I think now, I’m more aware of it. Like today, I’ve just been on the go since… I haven’t had lunch, it’s four o’clock.

Jayce: Oh no! Do you want us to get you something to eat?

Kevin: No, but I’m genuinely excited. So, I think because I’m aware of this, I, kind of, have to take care of myself as well. Thankfully, I have people around me that know I fall into this space, so my assistant will be like, “Shut up. Eat. We’re not going to let you move away.” I think, when you look out for people, they kind of look out for you as well.

I think in the previous mindset as a photographer, it’s all about me, do you know what I mean? It’s like, me, my ego. We shoot this person, it’s like how I benefit, I look good. But now, the thing is, if you can provide value and then provide value for a lot of other people as well, they value you as well. I think that’s the mindset, yeah.

Jayce: Is that the reason why you went into photography in the first place?

Kevin: Yeah, absolutely. I think with photography, creating something out of nothing, and then having a final picture that you can show the world, I think that excites me. Then, until this day, even though I do a little bit more business, and photography is more of an on-demand thing for me, I’m still genuinely excited. Even for my own life, I still use every opportunity to create pictures, do it the way I do it. Like, when my wife found out and I found out we were pregnant, we created a baby announcement picture as well. I’m not sure if you guys saw that?

Jayce: Yes.

Kevin: It was a boy and Star Wars is one of my favourite movies, so we did a Star Wars theme shoot where the announcement was a blue lightsaber. 

So, a lot of that kind of stuff, a lot of people can’t really do, but we used the skillsets that I’m good at and we used that for that. So, I think that still genuinely gets me excited.

Jayce: When you moved to the US, was that a deliberate decision or was it, kind of, [unclear 00:32:04], you just opened out and then you decided to head to the States?

Kevin: When I moved, when I was about 19 years old, at that point in time the creative feel in Singapore wasn’t very developed. So, I think, immediately I also knew that there was a ceiling above. So, if I had stuck down in Singapore, I’m sure things could have moved but I felt like there was a ceiling. So, obviously everyone has to make a decision at some point, so my decision was, I saw a bigger market, I knew I had the drive enough to, kind of just go and do it, I didn’t know anyone in the US, so really, flying there solo was one of the scariest things I could have done as well, especially when you’re 20. 

Thankfully, I worked a little bit, thankfully I had parents that were very supportive, because for a good, I would say 12, 13 years, I hardly saw my family and not many families are okay with that, thankfully my family were, and I think that gave me that space to grow, make a lot of failures along the way. It definitely was not just like, just because I started I got there, there were so many different failures that have hit me along the way, but I think the drive and passion, you know what you want to make happen and you still keep going.

Fanny: How do you find your first client in the US?

Kevin: A lot of failure. The first clients happen after, let’s say 100 people turn you down, the 101st client that you get, that is your success.

Fanny: So, you made a [unclear 00:33:41]?

Kevin: Yeah, absolutely, because it would have been so good if my grandfather was connected, like it was easy to get connected, but unfortunately, I didn’t, it was really just starting from the ground up. 

I think what was harder also, being Asian in the US. Thankfully, maybe because I’m an outgoing person, I just found the right people that kind of believed in me as well. So, by taking a chance, they kind of benefited but I also benefited as well. So, obviously when I got the chance, I couldn’t drop the ball at any chance. 

So, it’s also about, sometimes you just have to work twice as hard. A lot of the shoot prep, where nowadays I can close my eyes and go in and maybe take ten minutes and prep and I’ll still be okay, previously it was ten hours’ worth of prep. In case I ran out of ideas during the shoot, I’d have a lot of backups, I printed, researched, done a lot of stuff. 

So, at no point in time did I give myself room for failure, and I think when you first start, you kind of have to do a lot of that. 

I think a lot of the students that I meet nowadays, the younger generation, I think they kind of take things for granted and they think everything is kind of given to them. So, when they hit that little bump of failure, they kind of give up. So, I think that is a mindset that you have to kind of get over.

Jayce: At what point in time did you decide, “Okay, I should focus more on building companies instead of continuing with my craft, improve my craft as a photographer”?

Kevin: I think I do both still, but I think the exciting thing is creating that value. I realised, where previously I created photographs, then all of a sudden, I helped companies create companies, then all of a sudden, the manifestation came to create my own companies. I think the act of creation is still there, it’s just I realised that the only thing that changed is the size of the value I put on different things.

So, as a photographer, it was that value was only me. Maybe the company that hired me, but that was about it. So now, when we built the celebrity management business, when we help companies develop and enter into a new market, that is, we’re bringing value to more people, thousands. Then now, all of a sudden, when we start our own companies, is bring value to maybe the team that we hire, they grow because of what we’ve created, and then on top of that is the service offering. “As we grow, can we affect more and more people? Can we make people’s lives better because we’re around?” I think that to me is my ultimate goal.

So, that’s why I started from photography, and I still love photography, but the drive to bring value to a larger subset of people is what keeps me going up and up.

Fanny: Yeah, inspiring.

Kevin: I guess to me it all comes from that philosophy as well. I think, what I do is very superficial, like celebrities, it’s very superficial. If I disappear, no one’s going to miss me. So, I think that position to, if I can create something bigger, that impacts a lot of people, so let’s say if I go at least I had value or a mark I made on this world. That is what keeps me driving, because I feel like I haven’t done that yet and the clock is ticking, everyone’s getting older, so it’s that drive to keep going.

Jayce: So now, having a family, new kids coming along, has it changed your perspective a bit, as to your passions and this and that? Are you into baby products?

Kevin: Funny enough, with the kid, I think the big shift ever since we found out, and maybe even getting older, is a shift in priority that you can’t do everything. Having previously, every opportunity, every potential, I would kind of jump on. But now, getting older, maybe hopefully wiser, it’s about prioritising and realising you don’t have to, even though you can take every opportunity, you shouldn’t, because I’m also realising the concept of opportunity loss as well.

Jayce: Right. That includes your family time, and things like that?

Kevin: Exactly. So, it really is about prioritising. Certain things where, even now, it’s about making a living but it’s also making a life. You can’t sacrifice making a living so much that you forget to make a life. 

Maybe when you’re younger as a freelancer, you don’t have the opportunity to think about all of this, but at some point, you will and maybe it’s just a stage of growth for every person.

Jayce: What would be the top three pieces of advice that you would give to a young freelancer that’s starting out in Singapore?

Kevin: Definitely, the first one is just don’t give up, because failure is eminent, you will always hit failure, no matter what and for me I see a lot of youngers nowadays, the second they hit failure, they kind of give up. It’s not even like the first hundred times, I lot of people, the first time they give up, but failure, especially in your career, happens over and over and over and over again. To me, what is that called? Success is the enthusiasm to hit every challenge without losing any enthusiasm. So, to me, if you can do that, that will eventually lead to success. Why? Because you refuse to give up at the end of it.

Jayce: Just now you mentioned the reason why you left for the US is because you kind of felt like you had hit a ceiling in a sense, that was then. Now, with today’s technology, today’s opportunities, do you think the situation has changed, and has it changed for the better or changed for the worst?

Kevin: It’s definitely changed for the better. I no long feel that there’s a ceiling cap in Singapore. I think, really, the glass ceiling, if you will, is really a mental glacier. It’s really the stories that you tell. If you tell yourself whatever it is, you can’t grow, because really, with the internet, with the amount of digital businesses that are growing all the time, the playing field is level, especially now with all your blockchains, your smart AI and stuff like that, you really don’t have to be… 

A lot of people are growing, despite the lack of opportunity and we’ve seen all of these people, they’re raising millions of dollars. So, it’s really, can you get on that opportunity, do you guys have the guts to do it? And a lot of people do, they just back down.

Jayce: Just now mentioned about change, AI and all of this, those are latest technologies which, I think a lot of our freelancers, when we mentioned this they were like, “Oh no, no, I don’t know any of this. I’m just a designer. I’m just a writer. I don’t know about blockchains.” So, what would you advise these freelancers, in that sense, where a lot of them currently, they don’t really require technology in that sense, because as a writer or a designer, you’re not really required to know so much outside of your field? So, what would you advise this group of freelancers to do in this current time?

Kevin: That initial skillset is also changing very quickly. Previously, like I said, as a photographer, maybe all I need to do is learn how to take pictures. Nowadays a photographer needs to learn distribution as well, have a healthy social media following before they get hired. 

The same thing, as a writer, you can either stay a writer and be very obsolete or you can open yourself up and yes, maybe, “I have no interest in AI, but blockchain, that’s exciting.” If you grow, then that’s how you find success, because if you don’t grow, you’re going to stuck. Unfortunately, the world is going to grow whether you like it not, the world is expanding whether you like it or not. So, it’s just really up to each individual to be able to keep up with it.

Fanny: You stopped at the first piece of advice. What others?

Jayce: Oh, sorry, sorry.

Kevin: The second thing is to really ask outrageously. I think a lot of people are very scared to ask for favours or ask for certain things and once again, there’s a lot of different stories.

I’m actually just reading a book called Ask Outrageously. There’s a lot of these big CEOs who actually ask, actually get something out of it, because if you don’t even ask you will never know.

Jayce: Do you think it’s a Singaporean kind of trade mark, that we tend not to ask because we worry about rejection?

Kevin: Yes and no. I think people from everywhere around the globe are worried about rejection. I don’t like to be severe as well, I don’t like to come across as severe, but the thing is, if you don’t ask you’re stuck at where you’re always going to be. So really, the only person that has power to break you out of that is really yourself. You can either say, “I’m afraid to look silly, I’m just going to sit in my bubble,” but then if you don’t go anywhere, you only have yourself to blame.

That really is one of the hardest things, but even so, sometimes for me as well, I catch myself in that. Sometimes I’m like, “Why didn’t I ask?” It was either I was nervous, I was afraid, I was like, “This guy is way bigger than I am, I’m a bit nervous,” and I always kick myself for that. So, now, maybe because I’m more conscious, I try. I wouldn’t say I always, 100% do it, but I know that is some way that I can improve and at least I’m more conscious of that. I think that’s the start of it. Really, the second that you ask, mostly, the answer is no, and you’re really just back to square one. You don’t lose anything, you’re exactly back to where you were, but if someone says yes, then all of a sudden, you jump a level.

Fanny: That’s true.

Kevin: That’s the biggest thing.

Jayce: Yeah, that’s right. Okay.

Fanny: Final advice?

Kevin: Final advice, don’t be too comfortable in where you are at, because, I mean, more than ever, technology, your base skillset is always growing. So, as I said, as a photographer, as a writer, as an architect, things constantly change and if you insist on staying in your bubble, you’ll be left behind.

Jayce: That’s right. Thank you so much, just one more question before we go. So, if you could give one piece of advice to your younger self, where you are just starting out, what would you say?

Kevin: One piece of advice for my younger self? Let me think about it, okay?

Jayce: Yeah. It’s okay if you take your time. So, what would you say to your younger self?

Kevin: Such a good question.

Fanny: Fearless, be fearless, I would say.

Jayce: That’s the ad to [unclear 00:45:05] commercial.

Fanny: Is it? Oh yeah. But, I would tell myself that, because I’m very fearful.

Kevin: Everyone is, to some point.

Jayce: Actually, a lot of freelancers are very fearful.

Fanny: I suppose it’s because I’m so sheltered, I really [unclear 00:45:21].

Jayce: I’m told that is [unclear 00:45:23] as well. A lot of people worry about a lot of issues.

Kevin: Actually, a very good point to what you said, to me I think that one lesson I would have given myself is, take action despite fear. That’s even better than being fearless. I think, everyone has some fear at some point in time, there’s always something holding you back, but really, the only difference between the ones that succeed and the ones that don’t are the ones that take action despite that fear. Really, that’s what it is. 

I’m sure there were many times where I didn’t take action, I lost a lot of opportunity because I was just scared. I didn’t want to look silly, I was blah, blah, blah, but I think now I’m a little bit more conscious, I’ll still do it regardless, but when I was younger, who knows where I would be if I hadn’t done all of these different things, we’ll never know. But, looking back I think that’s a very big thing as well.

Jayce: Great. That’s great advice everybody. Take action!

Thank you so much Kevin. Thank you for the time.

Kevin: Thanks Jayce. Thanks Fanny.

Jayce: We’re just going to do a bit of a roundup. 

So, thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Freelancer Exchange. Subscribe to iTunes and leave a review.

Fanny: Also subscribe to our YouTube page and leave a comment because we want to hear what you think. Let us know your questions or the freelancer you want to hear from and follow us at Creativesatwork on Facebook and Instagram.

Jayce: So, join us next time for a brand-new episode of Freelancer Exchange and for now…

Fanny: Bye.

Jayce: See you. Bye. Bye Kevin. Thank you.

Kevin: See you. Thanks for having me.

Jayce: Thanks, bye. Thank you so much.

Kevin: You’re very welcome.

Jayce: It’s so great. I think it’s really great advice.

Fanny: Yeah.