It's Not You, It's Them! with Anne-Laure Herrezuelo & Satya Kothimangalam
“There are so many people out there who have a problem they want solved. So, if you can just be that person who can solve that problem for them, they'll happily pay you to solve it.”
Anne-Laure Herrezuelo & Satya Kothimangalam discuss the importance of knowing how to charge, networking and self-care while running your business.
Anne-Laure Herrezuelo is an artist, facilitator and community builder. She helps organisations identify and align with their big vision through collective art experiences .https://annelaureherrezuelo.com/
Satya is the founder of ZAG Studios and she helps service-based businesses create brands to stand out and create messages that will help them get their best clients really quickly, ZAC Studios: https://www.hellozag.com/
Jayce: Hi everyone, I’m Jayce.
Fanny: And I’m Fanny. Welcome to Freelance Exchange, where every week we speak to a freelancer about freelancing and the gig economy.
Jayce: So, we have today, with us, two very special guests, who I’ve presently known for a while and am really happy that they are here with us today. So, first we have Anne-Laure.
Anne: Hi everyone.
Jayce: She is a community artist and art facilitator, I will leave it to her to share with you more, and then of course we have Satya here with us today as well, hi.
Satya: Hi, so good to be with you.
Anne: Hi everyone, yeah very happy.
Jayce: Right, maybe you'd like to introduce yourself to our audience?
Anne: Yeah, would you like to start?
Satya: Okay I can start. Hi, I'm Satya, I'm the founder of ZAC Studios and I help service-based businesses create brands that stand out and create messages that'll help them get their best clients really quickly, and I've been doing this for about two and a half years now and it's been a really interesting journey, so I'm excited to share about it.
Anne: Yeah, fantastic. Hi everyone, so I'm Anne-Laure, I'm an artist, facilitator and community builder. So, basically, I help individual or university organisations get excited behind a big vision and really collectively build together the relation to this big vision. So, align behind the big vision, and I do that through collective art experiences.
Jayce: Great, so I think what brought us together was really through ImpactHub in Singapore, so when co-sharing space at that time was still very rare, and ImpactHub was essentially one of the pioneers in that industry.
Fanny: Yeah, six years ago.
Jayce: Yeah, that's six years ago, oh my God. So today here, fast forward six years later, we are all into our businesses and driving the passion that we believed in. So maybe you would like to share this a bit more about your involvement with the community, maybe we will start with Anne-Laure, currently based on what you are doing, what are some of the involvements you have with the local art community and media community?
Anne: That's a very good question, because actually I am still testing the different formats I am involved in, maybe just a few words to explain why people reach out to me. I've got a very diverse background, so I'm an engineer, by background, I’ve worked in Africa and South America.
Jayce: You don't look like an engineer at all.
Anne: Actually, that's very good when you talk about innovation or when people are thinking about something like a company that deal with technology, they say, “Okay, this one I can trust,” because she has this type of background. Then I've been in consulting, so people also think I can facilitate, from engineering moving to consulting, and when I arrived in Singapore I was more in charge of like, an impact and tech related community. I'm the first community and program manager of ImpactHub.
So, based on that, people really approach me on many things. I'll give you one example about how I've been involved with a local artist. For example, it was a music, inspiration and technology festival called IMI. They thought, “Okay, we have technology, art, we need someone who understands content, you seem to understand all of it, can you create for us some speakers and local artists?” I have never done that before, but I thought, “Well that sounds cool, so I'm going to do it.”
So, my role was really to approach universities like NYP, like local artists who see what we are doing and how we could create an entire exhibition with them, so that's one way.
Then different approaches, actually I know the person who knew me through ImpactHub, that was a medical university, and they needed someone to really help them up the students and the admins to really get the vision of the university and help them be more creative and become leaders. They didn't really know how to go about it, they said, “Okay can you come and do something inspiring for us?” I said, “Sure, of course I can.”
And then actually the person came back two weeks after and said, “You were a consultant before?” I said, “Yes.” They said, “Can you involve us?” I said, “Of course.” So, we started with 15 people and we ended up with 157 people, from the students, to the staff, the dean, it was amazing.
So, it's really listening to what people want and saying, “Yes.” and then “How do we do it and bring in the right people?” So that's more for me, yeah.
I really love my clients. It's true. I'm really excited by what's happening at the moment in Singapore and how people understand creativity is important and collaboration is important, and we need to be equipped with that, then we can run further.
Jayce: That's the 21st century skill sets that we are talking about.
Satya: Absolutely.
Jayce: Science meets art.
Satya: Yeah.
Anne: You said something very important, five or six years ago people were like, “You're an engineer, an artist, what are you?” But now it doesn't matter, like Google, for example, I don’t know if I can say the brand but, a big tech company created this virtual reality tool that you can paint in 3 dimension, a sparkling cloud of stars, multicoloured. A lot of engineers coded that so other people can be even more creative, and so there is no difference between technology, creativity, for me, both is very strong.
Jayce: Right, yeah. That’s true, that’s true.
Anne: So, really that way, that's where we are today, I really agree with you.
Jayce: Yeah, I think that's where our Ministry of Education is striving towards too, but it's just getting the formula, trying to break through the mindset of a lot of people, but I think what you are doing is really…
Anne: This is what I do, yeah.
Jayce: Yeah, this is what you do right? This is your business. So yeah, maybe you'd like to share with us more, because I noticed that you're coming to a very niche approach, right? You target the start-ups, which you are very good at it. So, how do you find your niche? Maybe that's something our freelancers can actually learn from you.
Satya: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, there was something I wanted to add on to what you were saying, so I'll just address that for a quick second and then get into the niche thing.
I just had this thought very recently, at the top of any industry, it's all art, because there is no science to handling problems with people at work, there's no science to learning how to grow a business, like how to solve the problems that come when you grow a business. I was having this discussion with someone lately, and I was like, “Yeah, at the top of any industry, it's all art. It doesn't matter whether you're a musician, it doesn't matter whether you are a tennis player, it doesn't matter whether you are at the top of a business, it doesn't matter whether you're top of a political system, at the top of any industry, it's all art, right?”
So the fact is, that if we empower ourselves to be thinking out of the box and get the skills that we need to be creative at solving problems, we will learn that whatever it is that we want to accomplish, it's more of an art form than science. So, that's something that's really interesting to think about, which is; you're basically helping create the kind of leaders who can solve problems that are not written down in a text book. So, I'm really excited for you and I'm really excited to see what comes up from that.
Anne: Maybe I’ll bring her
Jayce: Yes, you should
Anne: Just to the let the audience know, I know this person, I've actually hired her because I think you're amazing about how you manage to target the perfect content and convey the message, because I'm really creative sometimes, I don't know how to say things and I can see, I know why I hired you last time, so thank you for sharing.
Satya: Absolutely. So yeah, about the niche. So, I take a very niche, specific approach and I work with a lot of people who are trying to figure out their niches as well, both in my consulting working, which is what I do 30% of the time, but I've recently started coaching freelancers as well, who want to take their business to the next level.
So the reason why I've always been very specific about working with a certain type of client, and for example, when I was just getting started, I worked with a lot of tech start-ups in Singapore, just because they were in my immediate network, I was at the Hub for such a long time and I just knew so many tech start-ups, that it made sense to start off my consulting business working with them. But then I realised that as I was working with all of these amazing clients, it started being very draining for me because all of them wanted really different things from me, some people wanted to do Facebook ads, other people wanted to do a website copy, other people wanted to do full blown marketing plans, some clients I would work with for nine months, other clients I would work with for one month.
So, what I just realised was that, there were all these different projects which had their own, it was like each project was its own universe and required its own little things, but it started really being draining for me because there's only so much time that I have, there’s only so much time to spend with clients.
So, becoming really specific about my niche really helped me create processes around my work that can scale, because ultimately, I feel like I don't want to be a one-man army, a one-woman army forever, I want to expand, and I want to be able to scale my business, and picking a niche is just really important for that. And as I help my clients do that, I can see that they grow their businesses faster, they can charge more, because they really become experts in that industry, and all of that is a good thing to grow a sustainable business.
Jayce: Yeah, that's right.
Anne: Can I comment on what you've said?
Jayce: Yeah of course, please.
Anne: Because I think it's very important, I really understand the aspect of, sometimes you're a freelancer, sometimes you're a consultant and it has a different impact on how you work, and I just want to substantiate on that.
Being a freelancer, your question is very good because finding the really particular one or two products that can identify you and your time is money, and you just do this, that's the definition of a freelancer.
What I've noticed and I remember I had a client starting in Singapore, and then she went to Paris, so she brought me to France with her, and it was more like, she hired me for something and eventually she had other issues that I could fix, because I know how to do many things. So, we just shifted the time for something else and it became more a consulting mission, very draining, amazing. But really, it was more hiring me for multiple things, and this is not really freelancing.
So, if people really want to specialise in something, go really deep, that's freelancing, if they want to be kind of a one stop shop, and then a super facilitator, which I think I also like, it's really a different approach.
Actually, I have a question for you; do you consider that if you scale your business, you hire people, you're still a freelancer?
Satya: I actually don't consider myself a freelancer, even right now. I have not called myself a freelancer forever. Just because I feel like the term itself, the word freelancing, just kind of means, it gets devalued a lot. I’ll just say that.
Anne: What makes you say that? I would love to hear about that. Because I don't call myself a freelancer either, but still, I'm interested.
Satya: Yeah, the problem is that with the word freelancer, what has just happened, and it's really unfortunate, is that all over the world there are marketplaces right? There are marketplaces like Upwork, where you are able to hire a talent for really cheap, and when you say freelancer, a lot of people associate with the $3 an hour talent that they can find on Upwork, and that is a sandbox I did not play in since day one. From day one I was like, “That is not the sandbox I want to play in,” and I tell all my clients and all my coaching clients and my consulting clients, do not call yourself a freelancer, do not call yourself any phrase that can potentially devalue your work.
I always say I have my own business, I never say I freelance, and to be honest I don't think it is accurate either because I do hire people on contract basis and I do collaborate with other people, so I'm not a freelancer anyway in the very specific definition that that word has.
But I would say that it's so much better to stay away from that word, I think people would just make a lot more money if they didn't call themselves a freelancer.
Jayce: So, you think it's a mindset thing that actually constrained them in that sense, when they see themselves as a freelancer versus if they see it as a business in that sense and how do they grow it, so it's a mindset thing you think?
Satya: Yeah, absolutely, and I think it's a mindset thing on both sides, not just for them as a service provider, but for their clients and how the clients perceive you. I want to be perceived as an expert, I don't want to be perceived as a pair of hands, I'm not here to get the job done, and a lot of the times I disagree with my clients, I'm like, “No, I don't agree with you,” and that's just because they are hiring me to be the expert, they're hiring me to solve a problem, they're not hiring me to stroke their ego and I'm not here to do that anyway right? And unfortunately, a lot of freelancers, like low cost freelancers, they're like, “Yeah, I'm just here to get the job done, I'm just a pair of hands,” and when you're a pair of hands, you just can't charge enough, and also you are not doing the right thing by your client, to be very honest. If you are really an expert in your niche, it's your job to educate your client.
Anne: I just want to say, I do agree with that.
Satya: Yeah, absolutely.
Anne: No, I mean it doesn't sound humble, but yeah.
Satya: Yeah, I mean I think all of us can stand to really own whatever it is that we are experts in, so yeah.
Anne: And it goes both ways, the clients are teaching a lot of things also sometimes. Maybe one thing I could add is the relation to time. People have been working with people on a regular basis for multiple things, like one event organiser, I think this is the fourth year I’ve worked with them. They started very small and then we built it up, and some time, so again it's a question for you, but for me the word freelancer, “I need a graphic designer once, and then it's done.” So, I don't know if the sound of the word is a bit like short-term, very sharp, but is it a long-term relation? I don't know. What's your opinion on that?
Jayce: Well I think it really depends on the client’s objective. We do have some clients who are actually not just looking for a short stint, of course they have immediate needs, whether it's a logo, whether it's brochures. But a lot of the clients we work with, they also want to build a long-term pipeline of talents that they can tap on whenever they need.
So maybe the top three value propositions that our clients see us, is in terms of, of course quality, and that's what we have always been advocating. We want to work with self-employed person or creative individuals, or independent creative professionals.
Satya: I love that.
Anne: She's happy.
Jayce: So, let's avoid the word freelancers for now.
Anne: No, maybe it's just a perception.
Satya: Yeah, it's totally fine.
Jayce: So, we are looking for people who are really passionate about their craft and who really stand for something, whether you are a graphic designer, whether you are web designers, to strive for excellence is key. So, we always are looking out for this group of freelancers, because that's what keeps the clients, that's what will make a difference between a one-off project versus a long-term project.
So, quality is one, and then another one is timeliness. So, a lot of our clients come and look for us because they have no choice, because the thing is so urgent, they don't know anybody else that can do it, so they say, “I'm sorry, I need it done by tonight,” or, “I need it done by tomorrow because my previous freelancer didn't do a good job. I'm answerable to my boss,” and things like that.
So, timeliness is something that is very important. So, if we are actually able to provide this turnaround for our client, not just with freelancers, because right now a lot of them, maybe they already know, they are maybe already working with somebody, maybe they just want graphic designers, but if they need it, the graphic designers may not be available, so hence, they would hope that we can actually build a stable portfolio.
So that's where it's not just once, it's long-term engagement, but it's just that they don't know when is the next one, so they also hope to build this long-term relationship with that person, so that they can count on that person whenever they need to.
And then of course, lastly is the cost, as you just… because it's a business, bottom-line matters, so it's really the cost effectiveness. So, let's say, if there is a good freelancer who works very well with the team and is cost effective, so why not? The client will want it to be a long-term engagement as well.
Fanny: Yeah, but I find what Satya says, is very true about labelling themselves as freelancers. But for the past two years, the Singapore government is starting to shed the limelight on freelancers. It's only recently that they started to use the term, but what you say is very correct. But I think when freelancers know themselves as freelancers, they think themselves as just one body and operational tool. That's why a lot of them come to us asking us how do they carve out their niche. That's a very common question, but because they see themselves as a freelancer and not an expert. I think if we were to turn things around and if our first question to them is, “What are you an expert in?” It forces them to look into what they can develop their expertise in, and then maybe you know, the whole gameplay can be levelled out.
Satya: Hell yeah, I love that.
Anne: And also, I think it's good to think in network. So that they can pass the opportunity, that's why you are here, to pass opportunities around.
And I'd like to come back on something you said about the timing. I noticed, so maybe that's a tip for freelancers, or however we want to call them.
Satya: Sure.
Anne: For me it's being present in the mind of people, because sometimes I just do small touchpoints, on a regular basis, I say, “Hey, how have you been? I would love to hear about you. Oh, by the way, we need this, you'll be perfect.” So, it's just they didn't think about it, they are so busy, to put myself in their shoes, there are so many things that they need someone for.
So just being present and then becoming more evident for them, and the fact that then you are in network, because for me that's a strength, whatever people need, they ask me. I’m really like, what I call a teacher, a facilitator, an innovation lab, whatever, I'm able to pass it to someone else, so that I can add a small touchpoint and then make the information flow. Then I told her, yeah, it’s important. People do not think sometime in network enough I feel.
Jayce: Do you think it's a Singapore thing? An Asian type of value, that we don't network enough?
Anne: I'm going to let you answer this question because in Europe, Africa and South America I was an engineer and a consultant, so not so much an entrepreneur, so…–
Jayce: Right, but do you see the difference between these two regions, I mean where you came from, Europe, and here in Singapore?
Anne: Yeah, a lot.
Jayce: How do you first settle down in a country like Singapore?
Anne: I started with because I don't understand anything, I don't know anybody, I need to get it a bit more and go deep into social issues, like issues or whatever.
Jayce: So, did you have a culture shock when you first move, how long were you in Singapore by the way?
Anne: Five years.
Jayce: Five years? That was when you joined ImpactHub?
Anne: Yeah, I joined day number three. I arrived in Singapore, there was a [Unclear 00:20:28]. I said, “Okay, I'm going to call people, I'm going to stay here and start having coffee.”
Jayce: So, what's the culture shock that you found most difficult to overcome when you first came here?
Anne: I don't know if this is related to freelancing. The culture shock, I am half French, half Spanish, I'm a very direct person. If there is an issue or something I need, I'm going to ask you like, “Tell me.” Then I've got the information that I can move on.
I learned really, like my last position I ended up having once a month an individual coffee with people working with me, I say, “Okay, how are we doing? Is there anything?” And people were like, “Yes, actually, I'd like to share that.”
So, for me, Asia is amazingly fast on many things, but sharing feedback, I have always to go and take it. I feel like sometimes it makes me lose a bit of time, you know? I'm happy to just tell me, then I adapt and then I've got the information. So that's a really big difference.
However, it has taught me to be a bit more smooth. Which is good right? I think the other side is very energetic, so some people love me, they will also hire me to facilitate a complicated topic, complicated situation because I'm a bit like, “Hey, I'm here.” Can I give an example of one of my last community projects?
Jayce: Yeah.
Fanny: Yeah, please.
Anne: There is a festival, the first ever about sexual wellness and reproduction, and they needed someone to actually engage and activate the community around this very delicate topic, so they said, “Do you have any ideas?” “I have tons of ideas,” and we ended up doing something, and now I'm doing interviews and making people draw, with a very smooth way of bringing this, like in one on one. But then we're going to have an entire exhibition about sexual wellness and reproduction which is not really easy to talk about, not really Asian style to talk to.
Jayce: Especially in Singapore, yeah.
Fanny: Yeah.
Anne: Yeah, I’m sure, and again, I'm not very sure it's just Singapore.
Satya: Yeah, that's true.
Anne: What would you say? Other parts of Asia?
Satya: Yeah, you're not going to have that in India. That would be weird.
Anne: So, the culture shock, that was, I’m a bit, I can play the, “Oh she's a bit funny.” And more like, “She's going to do some crazy stuff but it's going to be alright.” And if I manage, that's true right?
Satya: That’s true.
Anne: So, for our audience, she’s a friend, well to qualify this type of… To say that, really this first shock and different way of approaching things, it taught me, people in Singapore taught me all about, okay, you can still go for the hard, complicated topic that people need help to talk about it, or draw it, or visually represent it. Imagine what people are drawing for me? It's amazing.
Jayce: Really? Oh wow, I would love to see that, when is that?
Anne: 19th May, so there is a park festival, please come and I proposed them the idea at the end of the year to do a book out of it, a coffee table book, about sexual wellness in Singapore, honestly it is so beautiful. The quote I have, the drawing, it's really moving. I realised how people in Singapore, they’re all so romantic.
Fanny: How romantic.
Jayce: That's nice to know.
Anne: People are so romantic.
Jayce: Is there a target age group that you're looking at?
Anne: Very good question. I proposed that I really wanted to represent Singapore, that's why they hired me, and to represent the community of Singapore. I actually went on the government data, I said, “Okay this is the age group, ethnicity etc.” The way I propose it, there is a drawing, and you cannot identify the person by the ethnicity.
But really, it's sexual wellness, so it was more about helping people express in relation to that, and my speciality is to help people express through visual, and I forgot what I wanted to say, I can’t remember.
Jayce: People. Age group.
Anne: Thank you. So, the whole idea is; I know who I'm targeting, which age group, which community in Singapore that represents Singapore, afterwards it is just a large community. This is a sexual wellness of Singapore without targeting any specific segment.
Jayce: Yeah, I think increasingly, this is a topic, even in MOE schools, they try to introduce, but again they're a bit sensitive and held back because they're not sure
Fanny: When is the right age? How should we start the topic? Really few, out of curiosity, then they go to another outlet to look for more information, so it's very sensitive.
Jayce: Teachers are struggling with this as well.
Anne: Just to come back to the point about the platform and the community and the network, when a freelancer does something, understand what is the next step, and be prepared if they need support with the next step. So, If, for example, I go into a university and I have this experience in one on one with the student, and they are like, “We would like to provide some support.” Whatever topic they want, it's good for me to know what's next to be able to pass information even if I don't do it. So, I think that's important to understand what's next with the client.
Jayce: Yeah, that’s true.
Satya: Absolutely
Jayce: It’s the next step, to think about it. That's true. So, Satya, just to understand, going back to the culture thing, you were in Singapore to study at SMU for university? But prior to that, maybe you would like to share with us where you are from?
Satya: Right, I'm from Mumbai. I grew up there pretty much my whole life, and I moved here when I was 17 for university. So, I graduated and then I started my own business and 10 years later I'm still here.
Jayce: Yeah, never look back right? So, when you first came to Singapore to study at SMU, did you have a culture shock as well? Or actually in general we are quite similar in a sense.
Satya: Yeah, no but the culture shock was huge. Yeah, it was very interesting because obviously I was very young, and it was the first time I was living in another country without my family or anything, so that in itself is like an intense experience, but on top of that I'm a vegetarian and back in 2008, you'd be surprised to know that there were not that many vegetarian food places in Singapore. Opposite SMU, there is still a because I have been a vegetarian all my life, and obviously in India there's a huge meat-eating community, but the meat is usually in the curry, so you don't really see it. And then I walk into and there's like a roasted duck hanging there, I was like, “I'm going to get a heart attack just looking at this.”
Anne: Imagine the French person. I would take a picture and send it to my family.
Satya: Yeah, so I think that was quite an intense experience for me. So, getting used to the food culture was quite interesting. Also, I think Singapore has a very unique cultural context as well, that I wasn't really exposed to. I was in Singapore a week before classes started, a week before university started, so it was really just getting used to a whole new community of people, and also a lot of the people I went to university with, they had contacts, they had friends from high school who were still with them, they knew a lot of people through common social circles, but I didn't know anybody basically. I didn’t know anybody, so I was building my social networks from scratch and really getting used to the place.
Honestly, I think it took me about two years to really start loving Singapore, just because the first two years there's so much to get used to and obviously the curriculum was really intense and all of that. But I loved it, I think definitely, coming to Singapore has been one of the best decisions of my life, even though I didn't know it would be when I moved, of course.
Jayce: So, I'm just curious, why would you choose Singapore instead of like maybe the UK or the US, which are the popular places where a lot of people are going for their university degree?
Satya: Absolutely, and I mean especially in India, everybody and their grandmother is going to the US for a degree, it's true. When I was looking at all the options that were available to me, I applied to a lot of universities in the US, I applied to universities in Australia, I also applied to some universities in Ireland, because I was like, “Why the hell not?” But actually, I'm so glad I didn't go because in 2009 they had their financial crisis, so I'm really glad Ireland didn't make the cut.
But I think SMU and Singapore really stood out to me because the curriculum is very similar to Ivy League universities, so the pedagogy is exactly the same and it's much closer to India which means I can go back home more often and all of that. So, it just made more sense, and yeah, I think my mum always liked Singapore a lot and she really wanted me to study here, and she was like, “Yeah you should go, I think it would be a good option.” But definitely, I think in hindsight, it's definitely one of the best decisions of my life.
Jayce: Right, I'm glad that you enjoy it.
Anne: And it's so diverse here, the quality of people that I'm meeting, it's like, I've never been saying so much like, “Hey, I'm half Spanish, I'm half French.” Because when people ask you, “Hey, where do you come from?” It's like, “You or my family?” There's so many things to be said, so it means understanding clients’ needs some time, you need a lot of background and context as you mentioned.
Satya: Yeah, for sure.
Anne: It's so exciting intellectually I feel.
Jayce: Yeah, so what advice would you give to somebody who is interested in doing freelancing, how would you advise them to go and look for their first client? We kind of mentioned that understanding clients is important and things like that, and that requires a lot of skill sets right? Communication skill sets, understanding of the context, client management. So, for young freelancers, what are some of your recommendations as to how do they go out and get their clients?
Anne: One that is very important, just go out and talk to potential clients, not only your friends, not only the people you trust, just go out and talk to people. I'm not joking, I was mentoring like 12 hours on Saturday, amazing, but it took them maybe half of the time to understand they needed to, during the [Unclear 00:31:45], grab the phone and talk to people to understand what you're proposing and things like that. Yeah, and every time you meet a client, what I'm trying to do, and a lot of people would advise the same, ask this potential client, “Hey, can you recommend me someone else to meet with, just to have a coffee and get some feedback and understand?”
Jayce: That's a good suggestion, we have never done that before.
Anne: So that's a tip that you never leave, and if the person is busy or something, or they say, “I will follow up later.” And they don't, you do follow up, until they give you a contact. Okay, making it easier for them it's, “Hey, I've noticed you didn't have the time to come back to me, I prepared a small [Unclear 00:32:27] so you can introduce me easier to this type, this type, this type.” Make it easy for anyone who's accepted to take a coffee with you, but never leave without any.
Jayce: That's a great tip, yeah, that's what I should be doing.
Fanny: Yeah, that's what you should be doing, that's a great tip.
Anne: And be a hustler. Because you can assure them you're not going to do a self-speech, because you're not even ready, you don't know if you have a niche etc. But really talk to them, I would love to do that even more, like I had two meetings this morning. So, it's a bit, and stability because you get so much insight.
Jayce: So, for example, you mentioned you wanted to meet more people, but do you have the time? So, once you get a project you have to do this, right?
Anne: If I had the perfect answer to that I'd be a millionaire.
Satya: Yeah, but that's really good advice, just asking people who else you can connect with is definitely amazing advice. The only thing I would add to that, like if you’re really new, so there are two things to think about.
The first thing is to go out and be useful and I think people just don't do this enough. There are so many people who are just sitting on their couch and going, “How do I get a new client?” But the fact is there are so many people out there who have a problem they want solved. So, if you can just be that person who can solve that problem for them, they'll happily pay you to solve it. So that's a really important thing, which is go out and be useful, and there are ways to be useful in all kinds of contexts, like you can be useful in a local community, like a [Unclear 00:34:06], you can be useful on an online community, like a Facebook group. There are just so many options for you to be useful.
And once that happens, I have actually hired people who just reached out and commented on my post and said, “Hey, here are five things for you to think about,” about this specific problem that I wanted to solve, and then we got on the phone and I was like, “I love your energy, I love what you do, let's work together.” And I've hired them for really healthy amounts of money, and that's it right? It just really starts from being useful.
So, I would say, definitely go out there and be useful, and the second this is, understand that you have an inherent value, just because you have time, passion and interest in a certain topic. I say this because, for example, I'm going to make a very unpopular admission, I hate social media. I'm a writer, I can write words for a living no problem, but if you want me to figure out what to say on social media on a regular basis. Like, I like sharing my thoughts, no problem, I can just share a ramble, not an issue, but if you want me to really like follow a schedule and do social media like a professional, there are very few things I hate in the world more than that.
Anne: Clear to everyone.
Satya: Like, if anyone comes to me asking for social media, I'm going to be very angry. So, for example I hired someone pretty much just because she loves it, she's like, “I love social media, I can do this all-day long.” So, the fact that she has the time, the willingness and the passion to do social media, means that she's already valuable to somebody like me. She's already worth paying, and she's already worth hiring.
So, that's something I want people to remember, because a lot of the times people go out there and they're stuck in their own head. They're like, “Oh my God, what do I do? What do I love? What don't I love? Do I want to do this in five years, la, la, la?” The fact is, your work is not about you, your work is actually about your clients, your work is actually about the problems that you're solving that need to be solved.
So, if you just think of it from that perspective, of just being useful and solving these important problems, making money or getting your first client or your 10th client or your 100th client is not really going to be a problem.
Jayce: Yeah, that's very good advice.
Anne: I think I really like what Satya said at the beginning, maybe do a bit more and say yes, plan in your head, “Okay, I've got three to six months money in the bank account that I can do some testing.” And that's very important that people understand, I give myself six months and this is the money, and plan everything they need to plan, then say yes. After that there is a moment which I feel is challenging moment, where you have to start to say no to some things. It's hard.
Jayce: Yes, it's important.
Satya: I can teach you how to do that.
Anne: No actually, I learned with consulting with big companies, so I've been working with very big industrial clients, and as a junior I was like, “Yes, yes, yes.” And at some point, I said, “No, I totally disagree, however we could do that.” The level of respect I got that day. I was like, “Oh my God, people like to be told, “No.” It was a solution.
So personally, in my business right now, I feel like this transition is a bit epic for me, because I like to do many things, but I think I need to really focus on what works best.
But yeah, it's important to plan, exploration phase and then understand what you're not passionate about.
Satya: Absolutely.
Jayce: You have some questions?
Fanny: Yeah, how about freelancers who want to find a niche for themselves? How do they go about doing it? Freelancers in Singapore, when they first started out, they will say yes to a lot of things and then they will do a lot of things, for example, corporate videos, to print, everything, So, how do they, in their journey, find a niche for themselves?
Satya: Yeah, I have the perfect answer for you, because I have this conversation literally on a weekly basis with my clients. And I kind of had a similar journey to what you were describing as well, you go through a phase of exploring and it doesn't have to be a really long phase, it can be as long or short as you need it to be. Because I know people who have been in the business as long as me, but who have never just found a niche, but the fact is that at a certain point, you will start seeing patterns in your business. I think that's the most important. If you just take out some time to reflect on how your business is performing and how things are turning out, you start seeing patterns in your business.
And I actually just have three criteria of how to pick a niche, it's very straight forward. The first being, it should be work that you really enjoy doing, because as a freelancer or as a business owner, however you choose to see it, the whole reason why we are here is because we want to do this our way, we want to do business our way, we want to do life our way. So, if you're doing something you don't enjoy, it kind of defeats the entire point of it, and it's also very draining energetically, and you don't want that.
So, it should be enjoyable to you, valuable to your clients and profitable for you to offer. So, there are really only these three things that you really need to think about to pick a really rock-solid niche that will make your business actually successful and also give you a lot of personal passion and energy for the work that you're doing. So, if it's enjoyable for you, it's valuable to your clients and its profitable for you to offer, bingo, you have the jackpot. And honestly, the profitability can be fixed very easily, like if it's enjoyable and valuable, finding the profitable angle is usually the easiest step. But if it's not enjoyable or valuable then you have a lot more work to do.
Anne: About profitability, and I think that's a conversation I had with an illustrator for example, maybe in Singapore, some illustrators are amazing technically, amazing, but in school they do not learn about how to budget the time and material, and the cost of the time you spend building the proposal.
It can easily be fixed, but it's important to think about it before and ask advice from people who are more experienced, find tutorials online.
Jayce: I think it's not only the illustrators, actually a lot of –
Fanny: The freelance designers.
Jayce: Yeah, creative professions generally, they see themselves not so good with money, not so good with figures. So, a lot of time they don't think about it.
Satya: But I think it's really astonishing, what you said is so true. It’s astonishing how true it is. I was speaking to someone who is a business owner and who has, in 2017, made more than $200,000US, which is a very healthy amount of money and I was having a chat with her, and I learned that she doesn't know how to calculate profits in her business and she was doing it completely wrong, and she told me, “We have 60% profit.” I was like, “That's not possible.” I asked her two more questions and I was like, “Okay there it is.” Okay, and can you imagine having 60% profits when you are paying 33% taxes in India? Like, “Hell no, you can't, that makes no sense. That means you have 7% business expenses, that makes no sense.” And I was like, “Okay, have you accounted for salary?” She's like, “No, we don't pay ourselves salary.” I was like, “That's the problem.” I was like, “If you paid yourself a salary out of that number, and you really accounted for it the way a professional accountant would do it, your profit percentage would be less than 20% probably, because you need to pay yourself,” and she was like, “It's me, my husband and a full-time editor.” I'm like, “Sweetheart, you've got to be paying salaries to these three people.” Like, are these people slaves? I don't understand.
Jayce: I mean, normally salary, I mean we are talking about normal expenses as well right? I mean I don't know whether they have office space, maybe they don't have office space, but what about the time that you travel to meet your clients? Transportations, all these are actually business costs.
Satya: Yeah. It is.
Anne: Software, memberships, all of this. It’s not very complicated, you don't need to be good with numbers, you just need to be good enough to consider that.
Jayce: Yeah, exactly.
Anne: And that's what I was mentioning when you're planning for maybe it's one month exploratory, maybe it's six months, whatever, just think about the end result, everything you need for that.
Jayce: Actually, that's also one of the issues for freelancers is really, how do they then calculate their…
Fanny: Daily rates.
Jayce: Yeah, their daily rates or even their hourly, how do they charge that client? Right, so a lot of them think, “Just charge $15.” But they never thought about, okay, you are freelancers, you don't have fringe benefits, you don't have additional health benefits, all of this, you need to put it in, right? So those kinds of things are something we would like our freelancers to think about as well.
Satya: 100%.
Jayce: Yeah, and at some point in time, you need to consider whether; is there a need for you to increase your fee?
Satya: Yeah, of course.
Jayce: But you can't be charging $50 a day for five years in a row.
Satya: Yeah, for sure. One of the biggest mistakes I think people do around pricing, and I love this conversation, I can talk about pricing and money all day long, because it’s seriously….
Jayce: It’s like, you’re so successful. It’s the most important thing.
Satya: Yeah, I’m not shy when I talk about money. I’m not shy at all.
But the thing is, with pricing especially, it's a really important thing to think about from a reverse engineered perspective and the reason I'm saying this is because a lot of people think, “I should price myself based on my market,” or, “I should price myself based on these freelance income calculators online.” Which pretty much always will give you a number between $50 and $75 an hour. I’m telling you, it doesn’t matter how you slice it, that’s the number they’ll come up with.
But honestly, I think that's a really low number, but the fact is, it's important to reverse engineer how much you should be charging, because think about it from the perspective of, “How much money do I want to earn every month?” And then break that down into, “How much time do I have available to work on client projects?” And then come up with the project fee. I would not recommend anybody do an hourly rate, okay when you're just starting out it's fine to do an hourly rate, but I would say transition out of hourly rates as soon as possible, because it's all about that mindset again. Your client, if they think of you who's somebody that's just getting a job done for a certain number of dollars an hour, the problem is you'll end up getting two questions that you just don't want to answer.
The first question being; “So how much work can you really do in one hour?” Which is a ridiculous question I think from a client’s perspective. I mean it comes up a lot but it's a ridiculous question, and the second thing will be, “Your number is so high, why are you worth that much?”
So, both of those questions are completely counterproductive to growing a profitable business, so I stopped charging hourly rates like years back, and I only do project fees now, but honestly, that's one of the biggest metrics that I use to come up with the number, which is, “How much time do I actually have available and what are my revenue goals?” And then you reverse engineer your project fee, and honestly, people think, “You can do this only when you've been in business for five years.” But I think it can happen a lot faster, it just depends on how much you value yourself and your expertise, and how much you're investing in yourself.
So yeah, I think that's my top tip around pricing.
Anne: I'd say it's going to secure the freelancer no doubt.
Satya: For sure.
Anne: And this type of mindset I really like, and another tip for freelancers is, you can apply it with your project with your client, like tell them, “These are the five phases, and this is how it's going to go.” And really sharing like from the end, and that's securing for them, that's securing for you, you understand all the phases and the costs involved, that's really important.
What I do when I do like more consulting projects as well, I still have a price per day. Just so, what will happen, if for example, one client, I've got a seven-step methodology for this community. What happened, one of my clients, the population, they complained, they said, “No we want also to do that.” So, I had to come up with an additional workshop that you can pride, knowing how much you cost per day, or you are worth per day, and say it's like, “Half a day workshop, half a day preparation, half a day of like wrapping up.” It goes fast and it's less troublesome than per hour, it's also good to have both ideas in mind so then you can articulate both approaches. Even if I work on a project basis.
Satya: For sure. Yeah.
Jayce: Yeah, that's very good advice. In our dealing of our clients, one of the most commonly said phrases is, “My budget is low, I have no budget.” What do you do with clients that say that?
Anne: Yeah, so, “What's your budget?” Then you need to understand, “What is your minimum budget?”
Okay, one client, I was working with another local artist, art installation. We had a lot of very good feedback, they went there, “Oh yeah fantastic, we want you to do it for us.” We are like, “Yeah sure.” Okay we talked, “What's your vision etc? What's your budget?” “Oh, I think we can put that at $500.” I am like, “This does not even cover the material.” Then you know, it's good to say, “Hey, this is not enough, maybe I can put you in contact with people etc?” But it's important for once you've calculated, reverse engineered everything you will spend and how much profit you want, it's good to know what is your own budget.
And something I learned from her, I think I’m going to implement that. I'm asking my client to pay 50% up front, because what I'm doing is important, I'm a small business, I’m in business, a small business, so cashflow is always… And when I work with very large companies that have very complex financial processes, they pay me throughout the six months after and I still do work. So, for me it's important to say now 50%. Something you advised me to do last time we talked is, “Yeah you pay everything up front.” I'm going to do it, I'm passionate, people know me for that. I'm going to do the work as best as I can anyway, but for me it's a way, I can spend on the materials, I can spend my time to prepare everything.
So, I don't know if people are comfortable with the 100% up front, which for me makes total sense, because you hire someone you want to work with and you think is going to complete, not like if you have the stick at the end. At least 50% up front, that's a tip I learned from you, thank you. And I do it, it works.
Satya: It works, yeah.
Anne: And the client takes it very seriously.
I’d like to maybe share something like, it was a very challenging experience. I could on this [Unclear 00:49:11], but actually it went very well, I got good learning and I kept the trust with the client. It's like, sometime building the vision and align the people in a very short stretch of time is a priority, so people are going to start working with me, and sometimes there are things happening and it doesn't become the priority any more, things happen.
So, I had a client, we signed a contract, a bit friend, “Okay I work a bit with you.” And it stopped, they never paid me even if I did a bit of work and it had to stop. So, eventually, like months etc., I had a very direct approach, I said, “Okay, what's happening?”
So, we had to cancel the contract, and I think we were so open about everything, that really, I kept a very strong connection with them and when it will become a priority again, I'm very sure they will hire me, but for me that was really like, my work is important and our personal relation that was before is even more important than everything.
So, I decided to accept that we're going to stop this contract and then we, like financial [Unclear 00:50:24] etc., fine.
But now, up front, I do not start working if you do not pay this 50% that you've agreed on in the contract because I think my work is important.
Satya: Yeah, 100%.
Anne: So maybe I sound a bit like, I should have known, well I knew but I still did it because I've got a very personal relation to people, don't.
Satya: But that's the thing with a lot of freelancers, we end up doing a lot of things out of good will, out of generosity.
Anne: Yeah, good faith.
Satya: And good faith, and also because we are so passionate about our work and we know that people need it, and it's not about being unreasonable at all, like I always charge 100% up front, nobody every pays me anything less than 100% up front.
Satya: Thank you. But that’s…
Jayce: That's amazing, we should implement that too.
Anne: It's possible because she really trusts herself.
Satya: Because, you know, that's it, like what you said about the trust, that’s it, and I just say, “No, if you think that I will only finish a job if there was a certain amount of money at the end that you didn't pay me, like clearly you don't trust me at all and there's no point in us working together. I have the case studies to prove that I'm great, I know that not a single client has ever been disappointed with my work, I know all of the things that I need to know to be able to deliver whatever it is that you want, so why would you not pay 100% up front?”
So, it kind of feels like a cop-out to me to be honest, like, “Oh yeah, well if it doesn't go well, then we want to cut our losses,” or whatever, and I'm just like, “No, either you're in or you're out. You can just pick one.”
But when I get that question about budget, usually it's just that I really believe in letting people know what their investment is going to be with me up front, and if they still approach me, there's a very good chance that they know and they're okay with that amount of money. But obviously, in a conversation that comes up, it's like absolutely that they cannot afford me, then I have a big community of people who charge less than I do, and I'm happy to forward them along to them, but yeah. I don't ever discount my rates just because I don't think that's fair to them or to me. It's just going to cause more resentment and that's not worth it.
Anne: For a freelancer, it can cost a lot of money. I was there because I’ve got… Eventually it went very well for me, very friendly with the client, they apologised. I really understand them, etc., and it was loss of money, but okay, and a great learning. But I think it's not always the case, some people can work, work, work, get very stressed and then lose a lot.
Jayce: But I suppose a lot of those clients are not Singapore companies in that sense, because we deal with a lot of Singapore companies, they always have this anxiety about paying up front, as in, [unclear 00:53:11] more 100% up front. So yeah, I think 50/50 makes sense, because it's like half way there. So, it’s halfway there, so it's like I pay you a deposit, and then after that when I got it again, I think that is quite commonly practised, but I think 100%, we are just so far away from this. A lot of our clients are Singaporean clients?
Anne: Innovation.
Jayce: Yeah, exactly, it's something we must learn from.
Fanny: Yeah, I'm going to take this conversation to kind of like a global freelance industry perspective. So, what do you think, I mean, coming to where we are today, globally or in Singapore and Asia, where do you foresee the freelance or the independent professional industry to be in the mix in 5 or 10 years?
Anne: That's a good and tough question.
Satya: I mean, I really think that, and if you look at the statistics, I'm just talking numbers right now.
Anne: That’s crazy.
Satya: Let’s go there. By 2020 there are going to be three times the number of freelancers that are in the workforce right now, in the US alone, and that is a number that'd backed by Mackenzie or one of these larger organisations who are doing that research.
So for sure, I feel like that is the direction that the world economy is going, and, I think, just precisely for that reason, like what you said before about upping the game as freelancers and as service providers, that is honestly something I'm really passionate about and that's the reason why I work with a lot of freelancers who want coaching to go to that next level. Because I really believe that if we start treating ourselves like experts or start thinking about ourselves as experts and people who have massive value to add to the world, we really can elevate the economy. It's not so much about gigs, like the way I think about it, it’s not about gigs at all, like from my perspective and my business, it’s not about gigs. It’s not like, I do a gig here and a gig there, it's really more about how do I show up as an expert who can add value every single day? How can I really inspire the next generation of entrepreneurs? That's the way I think about it. I don't know if I'm alone in this perspective, but this is my first business, but it’s definitely not my last business. That's the way I think about it, like, this is not my last business, there are so many options, there are so many ventures that I'm looking forward to starting, and I can’t do that coming from a gig perspective. I can't just think of myself as a gig economy worker, but yeah for sure, I know that it's going to evolve a lot, because I know so many amazing, talented people in the US, especially in the writing space, who are doing small projects as a side hustle, apart from their day job, and they are so incredibly talented, and maybe one day they will make the switch to doing this full- time, maybe not.
But I mean regardless of whether that happens or not, I just feel like, there's so many options for how careers can evolve in the future, which is so exciting for me, I think it's just such a fascinating thing to think about.
But yeah, for sure. I think the 9 to 5 kind of culture that we are so used to from the 90s or from the early 2000s, I think that's definitely going to go through some massive changes and shifts in the next like 5 to 10 years.
Anne: So, follow that bird. Yeah, I really agree with the change of how people work, I mean it's like based on result, you don't need to be here if you provide the result. I think in Asia this is not so common still, they still need to face here. If I can work as well… I know like a mother or an entrepreneur and they are with their kids until 8:30, and then they work very late, but they still deliver. So that's one thing also.
You know you were sharing about how the government in Singapore is putting some light on the freelancers? This is very important that the government, even the client, have a bit more flexible processes to work with experts. You're in a big company, you cannot have [Unclear 00:57:08] amazing, but they are even slower than someone like Satya who is really, really at the edge of the business, and if you want to hire someone like Satya and your process is like, “Yeah, I pay you six months after the mission is finished.” I’m like, ah!
Satya: No, yeah, no not at all.
Anne: So from the client perspective, from maybe the policy perspective, and also from the service provider perspective, we're talking about like insurance, how can you offer something if working for a platform that bundle together several freelancers that are not in the same company, can you still offer that this large number allows the service provider, the interest provider to provide a good price, but you're still in your own company, and a lot of other services?
Satya: Yeah, like you could do an escrow, that would be awesome, that's a business idea for you. Do an escrow, oh my God, that would change the game of freelancing in Singapore.
Anne: What you mentioned; that the fact that work is changing, and there's a lot of event about that, so people are talking, talking, but sometimes not implementing concretely what it means.
Jayce: I think in Singapore we are still at a very early stage, definitely compared to the States. I think one of the key things is actually really changing the mindset of the key management team.
So, I think everyone acknowledges that the workforce is changing, that the way that we do things needs to change, but the determination of getting it filtered down to the last person who actually implements it, whether it's your H.R department, whether it's really the line manager, I think that is still something that hasn't really translated down. So, while maybe people think that the top management might want to see the changes, might want to embrace more diversity in the workforce, but then somebody along the H.R line says, “We need to have this profile, this person needs to have this degree, they have to have this number of years of experience before we can bring in him or her.”
So, I think there is a need to let everyone along the corporate level to understand this and to change together, and I think that might take a while. But I think freelancers like ourselves, or rather I would say businesses like yourself, who is actually at the forefront and willing to put a bold statement to it, I think that will help a lot. I think a lot of times it's really getting the word out there, so that people can think about it.
Anne: And also take for example of the H.R practice, they have their own KPI, they are not doing that to be annoying with us, which I understand, but the consequence for me is; I know I've got amazing expertise in community building, the consulting approach, individual approach, like collective art. But my shoulders are not large enough to carry the weight of a six-month payment. So, I'm really thinking, I know I can provide a very good service, because I've got some track record saying this with all of the clients, but do I want to go there? I do have the capability. I'm actually considering.
Jayce: That’s true, and that's an important consideration and that's a valid consideration.
Anne: And it's a bit sad, because maybe I don't sound humble, but my client and I, we really liked what we did together, but if there is no way for me to make it a bit easier, maybe I cannot provide the support.
Satya: And also, the thing is right, I feel like our world is evolving so fast, that for example, somebody like you has been doing art and communicating, somebody as amazing as you are, like somebody who is doing work like you, probably doesn't have 30 years of experience doing this, because this didn't exist 30 years ago, right? That doesn't make your work any less valid, that doesn't make your work any less awesome, it just means that you are at the forefront of this industry and you are making things that never existed before. So, if you are making things that never existed before, they're going to have to make some exceptions for you, they're going to have to accommodate you. They can't innovate in the old ways, it's paradoxical to think that's possible.
So yeah, that's something to think about from a client’s perspective as well.
Anne: For example, my business at the moment, a very interesting position is, there are people who gave me a chance because they trusted me. Not what I was doing, because it was like, “Okay we need this and this, can you do it?” “Yeah, yeah, I can do it.” “Well, we know you, if you say you can, I'm going to go with you.” So that's why I said I've got some track record that I can show that, okay that's good.
The thing is now, that this client, when they want to introduce me to someone who does not know me, the product is very innovative, it doesn't necessarily yet, what I’m working on, feeding their KPIs. I've got an issue to really, to people who do not know me, because they've bought me more than the product. So, they bought me as a kind of super facilitator, consultant artist, more than the product of a freelancer.
Satya: Got it, got it.
Anne: So, I don't know exactly, I don’t know what I’m going to do about it yet, but I have been lucky that trust is my biggest asset.
Satya: No, that's great.
Fanny: But if you translate that trust into a brand form of personality…
Satya: 100%
Anne: So that people give me the opportunity, but it means now when I talk to people who do not know me at all, and because it's so innovative, aligning people very fast behind a vision when you have a strategy decision, through collective art experience, the H.R people are like, “Training through art?”
Satya: What other options do they have right? That's the way I think about it, it is innovative.
Anne: In their perspective, and I understand where they're coming from, they have KPI's, but they can fit a bit, okay I can do team building, okay, they will not have any visual idea, and maybe people will forget very well, but I still do a training because my KPI is like that. So, they have a halfway option that are also valid in other types of spheres.
Satya: Got it, okay.
Anne: So, I'm just trying also to understand where they are coming from. I don't know yet. I think what I'm doing amazing and I've got clients to say, “Yes.” But when it comes from a completely different perspective, someone who needs to trigger creativity and innovation, they are not there yet. They need to grab something that is innovative, it is a bit of a stretch sometimes. So, I don't know how to do it to effect.
Jayce: Yeah, I just wanted to add, I think there are also some people who are just paying lip service, so they feel that it is important or maybe they see or feel that innovation is important and want then to do something about this, but then the staff themselves don't think so. They might not be buying into the whole idea of innovations and, “Why we have to spend this amount of money doing this, I might as well spend this money buying a coffee machine where my colleagues will be most happy at the end of the day?” “Good, H.R. is good, right?”
So, I think there's actually a lot of underlying issues when it comes to working with people, all these small little things, you need to understand it and to navigate who might be your champion in the company in a sense.
Actually, that has brought me to another point. So, say you have not worked for anybody before in your life before you started this company, and after that you started this company, is that right?
Satya: No, I had jobs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jayce: Ah okay. So was that a decision, after working for other people and then you suddenly felt, “Hey actually I want to set up my own company.”
Anne: Good question.
Satya: Right, yeah. Actually, I had a really short stint at JP Morgan when I was in university. I did a six-month internship there and I was a crazy 21-year-old, and the reason I say that is because I got offered a job at the end of my internship and I turned it down immediately, as soon as the words left my boss’s mouth I was like, “No.”
Jayce: And this is JP Morgan in Singapore or JP Morgan New York?
Satya: Yeah, no in Singapore, in Singapore. So, it was so funny because like, it was so funny, he was like, “Yeah, we loved having you, you were one of the best interns,” and I was like, “A-ha, a-ha,” like, “Would you like to work here?” I was like, “No.” He was so shocked because he was this lovely gentleman in his 40s and he was like, “What?” and he was like, “Do you want to take some time to think about it?” And I'm like, “No, I just don't.” And that's not from an arrogant perspective but really it came from the perspective that I was so miserable there. The work was perhaps interesting for other people, it was not for me. I just knew that I would've been a very well-paid alcoholic if I stayed in that job, I think that was my future. I was like imagining my future, I could see myself being really well-paid with a very expensive bottle of Japanese whisky, that would have been me. But then, I was just like, “I don’t want that future for myself.” I barely drink any alcohol, so I don’t want that future for myself.
So, from that point onwards, it became really clear for me that the corporate path was not for me and a lot of my friends who were with me during that internship went on to take jobs in JP Morgan or other similar banks, and hopefully they are enjoying their careers right now, but it was just not my path and that was just very evident for me right off the bat. And that experience for me was more like, “I am analysing this decision based on whether it's good for me or not, not just if JP Morgan accepts me, it's more like, do I want this life or not?” Which is an important question to ask for yourself.
But also, so after that, I knew that I wanted to work for start-ups. So, right out of university I worked for a bunch of start-ups and I really enjoyed that, but it also came from the perspective that I kind of always knew I wanted my own business. So, working for start-ups was more like a training ground, for me to see what I need to learn and what do I need to do and how does this world work?
That's why I think the first few years that I worked for different start-ups was really important because it gave me a really good perspective on it and it's given me some of the resources that I would need to think about my own business, it connected me to a lot of amazing people who also became potential clients and friends and support systems and all of that. So, yeah, I think it was just like one step led to the other.
Jayce: Okay, thank you so much ladies. But before I let you go, I have one last question for the both of you alright? The question is…
Fanny: What is the advice that you would give your younger self?
Jayce: You can take a couple of seconds to think about it.
Satya: Wait, how much younger?
Fanny: It could be 5 years, 10 years, 20 years.
Jayce: So, what's the one piece of advice that you would give your younger self?
Anne: Just do it. I think Asia taught me something, you know this growth mindset? Not trying to be perfect and just doing things, and that I can do a lot of things and that I need to trust myself. It sounds really random, but really, I think, I should have… Yeah, if you’re someone, it’s not about, oh you're perfect or you're amazing or you're talented, it’s like, I don't really believe that much in time, but just do it again and again and again and again, and also whatever people say you are, it doesn't really matter.
I'm going to try to explain, but for a long time I thought, “Oh my God, inside I'm an artist but I'm never going to say it.” And now I'm saying, “I'm an artist.” Just because it helps people understand what I do, but 40 years old French artist, say, “You're not really an artist, you're kind of like a service provider.” Service providers say, “Wait a minute, you're a consultant,” and consultants are like, “Well okay, you're an artist.” It doesn't matter, so me telling myself, so the perception, don't cling to this thing, just try something, try it again, try it again, just do it, go with the flow.
Jayce: That's very good. How about you Satya?
Satya: That is awesome advice, that is really awesome advice. Those are all things I would say to my younger self as well, which is like, “Trust your gut, keep trying new things.” But actually, to be honest, I would say to all entrepreneurs who are just starting out and also to my younger self, I would say that the most important thing that you can do for your business is to take care of your mental health and to take care of your mindset. And nobody talks about this, literally nobody talks about this, and this is just so heart-breaking for me and this is definitely a conversation that I want to be part of more in the future, which is, entrepreneurship as a journey can be very lonely. That's the reality of it, it can be very lonely. Like you are trying to make things work, you are trying new things, you have no idea whether it's going to succeed or not, that's the reality of a lot of a day-to-day basis life of an entrepreneur. So, if you don't invest in your own mental health, and that includes whether it's meditation or doing things that you enjoy or cultivating hobbies or even having a good time with your friends is really important for your mental health.
I think a lot of people, especially solopreneurs or freelancers, what we end up doing is, we think we have to burn ourselves to the ground to make a business work, but that is so counterproductive because the happier you are, when you are in a better place, your business performs better. I can guarantee this, I've seen this. Like in my revenue spikes, like when I'm not in a good place in my personal life, I can see that getting reflected in my business all the time, but as soon as I switch my self-care on, like I'm taking care of my mental health, I'm going to the gym, I'm doing what I need to do, I can see my revenues going up like so fast, it's crazy. It's spooky how fast that is.
So, that’s something I want… like, please take care of yourself, because that's the one thing that you're going to live with for the rest of your life.
Anne: I'd like to add one more parameter of factor to this, is the emotional support. You are the community for creatives, because actually we need as an entrepreneur to have an emotional support system, and we were talking about the evolution of work and co working. I think co working is not so much a space it's about the type of community and the type of people you can collaborate with.
For me the day I've sold a contract I'm like… It’s terrible, I’m like, “Man!” So, I check with friends, like this morning, like just after the two meetings I had this morning, I sent a message to them, I said, “I have a breakthrough I really need to see you.” Not to stay too much into my head and make decisions in my head, but really like, go outside of myself, talk to people and reflect. And I know people think entrepreneurs are alpha, really mental and you're going to decide. No.
So, for me, as you mentioned, spiritual, physical, but the emotional support system. So, maybe not only your partner, because then it's lot of pressure on the partner. Have an emotional support system like your friend.
Jayce: And you also travel a fair bit right, does it help?
Anne: That’s right, you were asking, what was a shift for me, the shift was like, “Okay I know there is something about creating visual connection to the future of a company, it doesn't really exist, and I can do it.” But also, “What type of lifestyle do I want?”
I am very sure I can deliver, I can work on a Saturday night if I have something to deliver, not a problem, but I also want to go somewhere where I can deep dive when I want.
So really understanding what makes you happy. Imagine yourself really happy, so what type of job can allow that, and if it doesn't exist then just create it, it's not easy but yeah.
Satya: Love that.
Jayce: Yeah, that's very good advice, just be happy, love what you do.
Anne: No but really, one thing about Singapore, I've got very positive optic, because I'm surrounded by entrepreneurs, people even in big companies like the president of the innovation lab, so really passionate people, but sometimes you meet people that are miserable and they’re under lots of pressure, maybe they have a family, there are many, many reasons, but they are not happy, and I've been sometimes in this position, I do not understand.
So just picture yourself doing this type of meditation, very happy. Okay how do I look when I'm very, very happy, how do I feel? And then how can I go to that. very happy yourself.
Satya: 100%.
Jayce: Great, thank you.
Anne: Let's all do a meditation now.
Jayce: Let’s all do a meditation.
Fanny: One minute of silence.
Anne: That too, the one minute of silence, for me, a good tip is like, just pause. I don’t know, again we are all on the… I removed Facebook from my own phone, because if not, my brain never stops, and for me to be creative I need this moment of, “I'm doing nothing,” and I feel in Singapore sometimes it's so busy, we feed ourselves and a good tip is sometimes just pause. I think it's very important, one minute of silence.
Jayce: I do that before I go into a major presentation or a meeting that is really stressful. So, before you start it’s like you give yourself one deep breath and maybe just one minute of silence.
Satya: Yeah.
Anne: There is this amazing TED Talk about how to feel strong before a meeting, and you know you put yourself in this position of power? But yeah, carve time for yourself to really like breathe, feel strong, stop a bit and then you can go running again.
Jayce: Yeah, that's really important. Okay, thank you so much ladies.
Fanny: Thank you.
Anne: Yeah. Thank you for having us.
Satya: Thank you.
Jayce: Thank you for all the advice.
Anne: It was really fun.
Satya: It was great, this was so much fun.
Anne: Thank you.