Hiring for Gaming and VR | The Freelance Creative Exchange (#6) Ashima Thomas & Shawn Toh
"So, as a freelancer, you have to be responsible to the project, you can't double book stuff, if not, you just don't have the bandwidth. I mean, pitching is good, knowing how to sell is great, but you can't oversell as well. Then obviously, from the other end, please be fair to your freelancers, they're only human, they're not going to pull off X amount of work in Y time, that kind of thing. You work in the industry, you know what's humanly possible."
What do employers look for when they hire freelancers? What are the opportunities for freelancing in gaming and Virtual Reality industries? How do they create a portfolio that will get them hired? How can they market themselves to employers? What can fresh graduates do to find jobs in these industries? Can creative professionals upscale themselves and switch to this industries?
Ashima Thomas is the Co-founder & CEO of Warrior9 VR, an immersive content company that specialises in CG animated VR from Singapore. She is also the Chair of AsiaVR Association www.warrior9vr.com www.ThePhoenIXvr.com https://www.meetup.com/asiavrsg/
Shawn Toh is a CEO and Design Director of Battlebrew Productions, a gaming company which specialises in mobile strategy games. www.battle-brew.com www.battleskybrigade.com
Jayce: Hi everyone, I’m Jayce.
Yen-Lyng: And I'm Yen-Lyng.
Jayce: Thank you for joining us for another episode and welcome to Freelance Creative Exchange, where every episode we speak to a freelancer about freelancing and the gig economy.
Yen-Lyng: But today we have quite different guests, in the sense that they are not really freelancers, but we will introduce them more a little bit later. We have Ashima & Shawn with us today.
Shawn: Hello.
Ashima: Hello.
Yen-Lyng: Ashima is actually a co-founder and CEO of Warrior9 VR, which is an immersive content company that specializes in CG animated VR, from Singapore right?
Jayce: Yeah, and we have Shawn today with us. Shawn is a CEO and design director of Battlebrew Productions, which is a local gaming company that specializes in mobile-strategy games.
Yen-Lyng: So very welcome to both of you and thank you for joining us on one of our first podcasts here, in [unclear 00:02:02]. Can you just tell us more about what projects you guys are working on right now? Anything?
Shawn: Okay, so we're working on a couple of games. There's a strategy game which is actually a lot about tribalism, people working together, but also working against each other. Resource Scarcity is the thing, that will be out hopefully at the end of this year. We're also doing an idle, sort of a town building simulator that will be out in October, so a more casual audience for that second one.
Yen-Lyng: Okay, how about yourself Ashima?
Ashima: So, we do two things, we do commissioned VR work and AR also, and then we do our own IP. So, we're working on an animated CG, science-fiction series, called The Phoenix, which is in VR. So, 10-minute episodes, and we're hoping to release that later this year, and then apart from that, we are also doing, it's kind of an on-going thing, a project called Oceans We Make, which is about plastic pollution in the ocean. So, there's a VR sort of interactive game about that, and then we're now creating some AR content around it as well.
Yen-Lyng: That's interesting, that sounds very exciting, both projects, both of you.
Jayce: And today it sounds like we are actually into the very high-tech industries, one from the mobile games, one from the VR.
Yen-Lyng: Actually, like Jayce introduced, we usually have this podcast where we introduce freelancers but today we want to sort of talk about the other side of the screen, where I'm sure both of you in the cost of running your business, you have hired freelancers and have worked with them in one capacity or another. So, have you two actually worked with freelancers? Do you work with them very often?
Ashima: For us, yeah. I mean it depends on what the project requires, we'll hire freelancers as we need them, and, of course, the core of all the work happens in our team. But, for example, sound engineer, we don't have a sound engineer on our team, so we would work with someone for that for all of our projects. We hire actors to come onboard to voice a lot of the stuff that we're doing. From time to time we might need other functions and we'll look outside of the team for that.
Yen-Lyng: So, Shawn, in doing games, you have a lot of creators onboard already, what kind of freelancers do you hire?
Shawn: I think for us, actually it really depends from project to project. So, we do have a core team and we are what you'd call full-stack. But we've definitely worked with freelancers of, in fact, all the disciplines, from coders to artists, to sound engineering, composing, even writing. So, I think, we are very open to that, in fact, we do need it, because the games industry is very project focused, so if the project has a type of deadline or a new project springs up, the core team just can't handle all of it by ourselves.
I think the games industry is also a very tight knit one, we are all effectively family, so, we don't necessarily view it as freelance, it's more like, “Hey, there's a cool project, let's go work on it. Do you know someone who's great for this art style?” And they go like, “Yeah, yeah, I'd love to work with so and so.” So, I think due to the nature of the industry, yeah, we're very project focused anyway so freelancing, working with freelancers is just a natural thing.
Ashima: It's similar with, just to add to your point, the VR industry is so new, so it's a very small community and similar in concept, where you kind of just draw on your friends and network and say, “Hey, I need help with this thing, can you come on board?”
Yen-Lyng: Yeah, actually one of the things that I was very curious about, especially for VR, is that, like you mention, it's such a new industry, such a new specialization and niche. So, how do you find the right kind of people to work on that? A lot of them might not have the experience in doing such a thing, how do you choose then?
Ashima: Yeah, I mean it is an industry where, really nobody has long-term experience, right? So, we're all kind of learning as we go along. We draw a lot of expertise from the gaming side, of course, because we're also in CG, so there's a lot of overlap there, and it's always a question of finding people who are just open to learning on the job and troubleshooting and approaching things creatively.
So, it's not so much that you have to show me that you know all the software, but it's more about, “Okay you have the basic skills, and this is going to be a project where we need to all put our thinking caps on to make what we want happen.” So, you have to be a person who wants to do that, and that is one of the things that I look for when we're talking to freelancers, because I feel like they kind of fall into two buckets. There are freelancers who just want to execute, so, “Come, tell me what I need to do, and I'll do it,” and then there are freelancers who want to be collaborative and actually have an input into the project. So, those are the people that we sort of focus on.
Jayce: So, Ashima, we understand your background is more into news, journalism, communications and things like that and it was for as long as a decade, about ten years. What made you decide to actually switch the industry and then move into the high-tech part of content creations?
Ashima: You make me feel old. Well, yeah I started off in news, in TV, and actually after ten years of doing that, felt that, you know, I've sort of loved telling stories and how can I apply that in another way, and I moved into impact storytelling. So, still kind of filmmaking, but just a different type of storytelling.
Once, I was working with, actually, a non-profit that, kind of ran like a start-up and we were exposed to a lot of people who were running their own businesses, and it got to a point where I could leave the team, start my own company, continue to work for them and then do other stuff as well. So, that's what I did, and VR kind of came along as another way of telling a story.
So, through our own company we were doing a lot of passion projects, and we had a script that had been floating around for a few years, a sci-fi script which originally, we thought we'd do for TV. But as time went by, realized that's going to be hard to get off the ground, could we do it for web? That's also hard to get off the ground.
Then we met someone who was like, “Let's just try a bit of it in VR,” and VR had just started as a thing people could actually do themselves. We made 90 seconds of it, were absolutely blown away by the possibility and then we were just like, “Let's just do it.” So, yeah, that's how.
Jayce: That's very brave.
Ashima: Yeah, but I think it's more about just the excitement of telling stories in new ways, that's really what it is.
Yen-Lyng: That's true, I guess we're all finding new ways and new stories to tell.
Ashima: Yeah.
Jayce: Yeah, Shawn as well, right? Do you have a similar story?
Shawn: Actually yeah, it's somewhat similar, there's many things that are familiar about it. So, I think a lot of the current crew and myself, we all used to work for much larger gaming companies. We learned a lot there and had a good time as well, but I think there came a point where we wanted more ownership over what we were making. I think we kind of looked around, realized that we had the ideas, we had the team, we had contacts to the investors, we had contacts to the publishers, what was stopping us was literally a 'why not' question.
I had options to go elsewhere, but I think we really thought about it and said, “We are still young, may as well, there's less things that are dependent on us.” It was a good time to try, and I think as it went on, I think we realized how blessed we were, essentially in that sense. There were many things that we could call on and pull on, many contacts, and I think that's primarily what drove… I mean, yeah, I'm here speaking about it, but, for us, we're very close as a team, so we looked at the whole thing and said, “Yeah, okay. We've got enough to form a small army, let's do it.”
Ashima: Nice.
Yen-Lyng: But you started out, or at least you had some experience freelancing yourself, right?
Shawn: Yeah, actually a lot of the team.
Yen-Lyng: But we always say over here, that freelancing is running your own business essentially.
Shawn: It is, essentially.
Yen-Lyng: How different is it, transitioning from just having to care about yourself and then suddenly having a team and having to be responsible for so many other people as well?
Shawn: I think it's similar in some ways, you're just expanding the scope and the scale. So, I mean, even as a freelancer you have responsibilities to the project, to the team that you're working with. The best projects that I've been on, I mean, you're family. So now, it's more like you're a closer kind of family, but like I said, the games industry is very project-based, so no matter what, you want this dream to come true, you want to make this dream together. In that sense, I'd say that the feeling is very much the same, and if you are a freelancer and you're working with a team that you love, on a project that you love, yeah, there's no real difference, it's very much there. [Unclear 00:12:26], that should be part of it, that should be part of it.
Jayce: I also understand Shawn, you spent some time in Australia as well.
Shawn: Yeah.
Jayce: So, in terms of the freelancing landscape in Australia and also versus Singapore, is there a lot of difference or actually, is it quite similar?
Shawn: I think it's not so much about location, it's about timeline in career or timeline in skillset. So, no matter what, I think, when you start out it's rough. So, it's about trying to find the first project, or company, or client that gives you a chance, and in a way that you're also giving them a chance. We've all heard of horror stories of either side getting screwed over, so I think I see it as being responsible on both sides.
So, as a freelancer, you have to be responsible to the project, you can't double book stuff, if not, you just don't have the bandwidth. I mean, pitching is good, knowing how to sell is great, but you can't oversell as well. Then obviously, from the other end, please be fair to your freelancers, they're only human, they're not going to pull off X amount of work in Y time, that kind of thing. You work in the industry, you know what's humanly possible.
Yen-Lyng: Speaking of that, do you guys have any like horror stories to share? On the other hand, do you have any positives? Like, “I'm always looking for this kind of freelancer.” Do you have those kinds of experiences?
Ashima: I would say we put a lot of time into who we'll work with, just to make sure that we're all on the same page.
Yen-Lyng: The interview process, do you mean, or getting to know that person better?
Ashima: Yeah, because again, for me, it's more attitude than skillset, sometimes. I mean, it depends what job function it is. I really want freelancers to feel like, when they work with us, they're part of our team for that period of time. So, it's not like you're an outsider who's just executing something, but you know, you should feel a sense of, you belong with us, on that project.
Also, not everyone has that personality, which is fine. So, not everyone wants to work that way. So, I think we really try to, you know, know people, and so much of it also a network, so like we were saying earlier, you know who you can work with because they're in your network.
Yen-Lyng: So, it's sort of like the people who you hang out with, more or less, you know you can click with them anyway.
Jayce: So how would you advise new freelancers to start building that kind of network that you mentioned? If, say, a freelancer who is interested in VR, augmented reality, what are some of the suggestions you would give to the freelancer in terms of approaching you or your companies, things like that?
Ashima: Yeah, so one of the things that I do as I'm chair of the Asia VR Association, so that's a free organization to join. We have a community of close to 3000 people, and what we really do is, we hold regular meet-ups, once every 2 months we try to do them, and really, the point of it is for people to meet each other.
Also, the industry is at a point where there's everyone from hardcore developers to very casual enthusiasts, and it's just about bringing everyone into a room, so that they can all know each other, so everyone's welcome.
So, part of it is looking up opportunities like that, and I think in any industry nowadays, at least you have things like meetup.com, so that's how we organize our meet-ups, right? Which, you know, you didn't have 10 years ago, when I was transitioning into a new field, stuff like that didn't exist. There's Facebook groups as well.
Yen-Lyng: Yeah true, those are very useful.
Ashima: Yeah, I don't know if the games industry has…?
Shawn: Exactly the same. So, for us it's things like IGDA, Singapore Indies meet-up. So, the exact same platforms, meetup.com, Facebook groups. Then there's unofficial WhatsApp groups. But yeah, I mean just find the circles where people all [unclear 00:17:01] together, and sometimes I think the tangent ones are good as well. I also shop to IxDA, they specialize in UX and stuff. So, it's like, WhatsApp games but shaped user experiences for certain things. So, sometimes finding that.
Yen-Lyng: Actually, one of the common issues or challenges that we've always had with not only freelancers, but even the guests that we have had on our show as well, is the networking part, because I think a majority of creatives, being more used to one side of the brain, and a lot of times it's a very individual passion to network is actually really difficult.
So, let's say you guys are at a networking session, what are you guys looking for in a potential hire?
Shawn: My crew call this weird, so I've learned how to be an extrovert sort of, but my true nature is I'm actually introvert.
Yen-Lyng: Yeah, that's the same for a lot of people.
Shawn: Yeah, especially in the creative field, right? So, I really need my space. I kind of want quiet time to think. So, for me I don't really view it as networking, I feel that's a bit soulless, so I reframe it in my mind. So, I try to find the commonality, like, “What do you love? What are you fighting for? What kind of projects do you want to make?”
At least when I look at it that way, when I try to approach it that way, then it's, in a way, short-cutting to try and find someone's values and seeing whether they align, looking at their outlook, whether there's things that you could align with again, alignment. If you do that, then the chances are, especially in the creative field, you're going to end up with projects that have something in common, and for me it's about finding that bridge. So, if you go like, “Do you like a sense of adventure?” Or artists, “How about Steampunk or Floating Islands?” They go, “Yeah, yeah and yeah.” It's like, “Yeah, you're probably getting hired.” You understand right? There's this contextual knowledge basically associated with that.
Sometimes some of that is hard to test for in a formal way, you're just trying to see whether they get the references. In the creative industries, we go like, “Oh there's a reference to Rick & Morty,” if you want like a certain mood or something, but they’re like, “What's Rick & Morty?” Then you go like, “This is going to be difficult.” “How about like that anime, or this anime, Made in Abyss, that kind of beauty, Studio Ghibli,” then you're like, “Oh yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about,” versus like, “What?” If they go, “What?” Then it's like, “Yeah, probably not the art style we're looking for.”
Ashima: Yeah, I mean I love that you say you don't, kind of, look at it as networking, that's a good way to put it, because that does scare people, and I also had to learn to be a net worker. I think it doesn't come naturally to a lot of people, especially in our region, because we're not naturally outgoing folks, right?
Yen-Lyng: We learn to keep to ourselves.
Ashima: Yeah.
Jayce: So how do you overcome that first step, to convince yourself to talk to the next person?
Ashima: Yeah, I mean I actually did a lot of work to become that way, so kind of self-development, reading things, and just trying things out, and you know, you were saying that at an event, how do I sort of…
Yen-Lyng: Yeah, scan and look for potential hires.
Ashima: Yeah, it’s really about, for me, people who are enthusiastic and just come up to me and want to talk. So many people will just, sort of, not ever engage and I think the people who do engage, I'm always happy to follow-up, to meet them, whatever it might be.
One of the things actually, points I was going to make about whenever we get approached by people. So, we do often get emails, like cold emails from people, or something, right? It's the persistent people who get my attention, because also, we're a small busy company and it's not always that the first time around someone's messaged me, and it’s like a million things going on and it sort of slips through the cracks, but the people who keep coming back are the ones where I'm like, “Right, right, yeah, yeah. I need to meet this person or talk to this person.”
Yen-Lyng: We've talked a lot about personality and character that you guys are looking for, but are there any specific skillsets you think you can't do without, no matter how enthusiastic you are, like, “I really want to join this gaming industry or this VR, AR industry”? You do still have to have those essential skills in order to step into it first, do you guys have any of those?
Shawn: Definitely. I think for us, if you're talking about working with freelancers, then it's just simply a portfolio, “What have you done? What are you rocking up with?” I mean to answer the perennial question which will always come up, “I don't have enough of that.” Then the answer is very simple, you make, you make anyway.
We talked earlier about forming the company. Before the company there was like nothing, it's one of those chicken and egg things. You've got to find some way to make something and then the rest will flow.
So, for those who are starting out, it would be, think of projects that you would like to work on, what's your dream project? Then, depending on what discipline you're in, coding, illustrating, 3D modelling, there's something you can build, and essentially, if you bootstrap that far enough you will find collaborators and the next thing you know, you might not actually be a freelancer any more, you've got your own company, which is kind of how this happens anyway. But it's really about getting that first thing made, you need to have something to show. I think that's really important, because for us what you make is your portfolio, if you don't have that, it's a bit hard to hire even.
Jayce: So, if you come across a portfolio that wasn't up to your expectations, do you just kind of say, “You know guys, we don't need people,” or would you actually try to actually help the freelancers to improve on themselves?
Shawn: Okay, so definitely we do. Mostly because I think the games industry is small anyway, so odds are like, “Okay that's my junior, that's my colleague’s junior,” and I think, no matter what, all of us are learning on the journey.
For us, we do have a second layer which is more for full-time hires but sure, so it's more of a small test. So, for artists, it's an art style test or a technical sort of test. There are definitely people that we keep in contact with because that's partly how some of my team met, we used to draw together. So, there's some people more junior that maybe we'd love to work with, in two years, they're just not there yet, but there's definitely people that we keep an eye on and then if there's something that they can do for us, sure, just maybe not this project or something. But I think definitely there's a network at play.
Jayce: So Ashima, for the VR industry, because that is really fairly new in Singapore as well, as we all know there's not a lot of existing talent that you can tap on. So, what are some of the trends that you see in the upcoming VR industries, and also, what do you think are some of the opportunities that new freelancers can work towards?
Ashima: So, the VR industry is quite wide, there's two parts to it. One is 360 filming, kind of, so live action content and then the other is CG, which isn't happening as much as live action. I think in Singapore, what I've seen over the last, maybe six to eight months, is that there's a lot more real interest from companies about going into that type of content.
So previously, we'd go out to the market and most people would be like, “Oh it's interesting and I know it's a new thing, but I just don't really see how it applies to me right now,” and then suddenly this shift happened where it's like, “We actually really want to explore how we can do this, so can you help us to do that?”
So, I see the interesting opportunities are beginning to grow and the tools are also getting more accessible. For example, with AR, Facebook released AR Studio, which is available to download, anyone can use it. So, I think that what a lot of… There are classes as well happening now, in some of the Poly's, in some of the independent schools to teach the basics of VR creation, and kind of going back to your point about having something to show, you can just try it on your own, that's the big thing.
So, for example, the base engine that we use to create our content is Unreal Engine. That's a free software, so our team is self-taught. There's a lot of information online about how to use it, and it kind of speaks to that person’s kind of mindset, that they're a self-starter, they're willing to just spend some time up-skilling themselves on their own. Those things make a difference. Like when I meet someone and they're like, “Oh yeah, so I just bought this 360 camera and I started making things and here's something I can show,” and I'm like, “Oh wow, okay.” That's more of a conversation starter than anything.
Yen-Lyng: Because I think a lot of people, creatives especially, are perfectionists, before they show something, it's like, “It has to be perfect before it goes out.” But I think in a world where information is running so fast and trends catch up so fast, technology comes up so fast, I think that's not quite as important as just doing it first. I don't know whether you guys agree or not?
Ashima: I mean, there is one thing I think that is now starting to be talked about, which hasn't up until this point, is this idea that in the content landscape, there is this big shift happening into immersive and 3D content. That's going to be something, I think, that 10 years from now is a given. That you have some ability to create something 3D, something immersive, and it's not like what we do now, there's a new way of thinking about how to create content like that.
So, I feel like people who really take that leap now, will be ahead of the game when it becomes a regular thing. You know, even how we share things online is changing and moving in that direction. Companies like Google have released platforms like Poly where you can share your 3D creations, that's going to become the norm.
Jayce: But I would say, that kind of mindset, not everybody has. For example, we deal with a lot of freelancers and they have different years of experience. So, we have also, like very rare experienced freelancers, but they don't have that kind of mindset. They view that, “If I have a craft and this is my craft, I need to perfect the craft in order to actually entitle me to be a photographer,” or a videographer or even a sound man.
So how do you suggest for freelancers who have been in the industry for so long, to actually try to start, to adopt a different kind of mindset versus how they learned in the past?
Yen-Lyng: I think even the veterans. I mean both of you have been in your respective industries or your companies for quite some time, and I think when we meet those who have been in their roles for a certain period of time, they meet inertia, where they're very comfortable where they are, they've been doing very well where they are, but the world is changing. And you guys, I think, have met with a lot of these situations where what you knew before doesn't apply any more.
So, what do you think should they adopt, like mindset, like Jayce says?
Shawn: I think that one is, actually, just let go of ego first, because even in games, even for the current projects we're doing. We were planning to make just one bigger game then we realized, “Wait. This smaller spin off thing is totally viable,” and there was a point where we were like, “Should we do this or not? What's the harm?” Schedule wise, after checking all of that.
I think we are at a point where user generated content is possibly king. I won't say definitely because there's still a place for creative work, but I think people are a lot more creative than they give themselves credit for. So even if you look at your Instagram filters for example, you go, “Where's the creativity in that?” But people still choose, they lay out the shot, and there's a ton of tutorials out there about how you frame a shot. It’s like, these people are actually amateur photographers and there's post-processing, especially when people get a bit more curious, “What about this filter or that thing?” I just go like, “Exactly, you're kind of doing post-pro, you're kind of doing…”
The thing is, the end users, if you put it that way, the people who view your stuff, they don't necessarily care how it's made, right? There's just so many ways to get it done, even the software that we work on. We use another engine, it's called Unity, again like Unreal, it's free. So, you just look at that and you're like, “Oh you can use this,” and this again comes with tutorials, and make something in one day. It's not going to be the most polished thing, but the fact is you made it.
So, I think now, more than ever, there's so many options to start off with and it doesn't have to be the world’s best thing. There's a space for, in fact, more casual things, and in fact sometimes people get scared off if it's too polished.
Jayce: But not everything is about speed right, about how fast you can get it done?
Shawn: Well, I think it’s about content as well, it's just more like stepping away from content snobbery. Even if I look at my own Facebook feed, or social media stream, or whatever, I think the last few things I shared, there was a silly meme about football, somebody sliding, and you go like, that didn't take years of experience to make, someone just thought it was hilarious and I think it's hilarious enough to share. Then, the one before that, it was like someone's cute cat video and the one that was before that was some silly stick man animation or something that was hilarious again.
So, I mean they're enjoyable but they're definitely not like high art. So, I think that's something to… maybe our own insecurities get in the way. So, there's an audience, yes, you can build for a certain level of quality, but I'm saying that usually there's an audience somewhere, and sometimes people even want to buy into the personal journey.
So, I think that's one thing with artists, some of them go, “My art isn't good enough to show yet,” and you go like, “Yes, it's embarrassing, yes it's not the world’s best thing, but think of it, like five years from now, when you're great or something and you look back and people go 'Oh my God, she got really, really good.” That’s what actually helps sell that journey, I think that's heart-warming in a way.
Ashima: Having said that, there's space for everyone. I feel like, if your thing is photography and you want to get amazing at it in the way that people have been for a long time, then go for it. I really think it just depends, it does depend a lot on what kind of person you are, and there is space for everyone.
Jayce: So, having said that, in terms of now, because both of you are business owners, wearing many hats, other than worrying about the product, the company, you also have to worry about the funding and then of course, there is this helping your employees or freelancers, whoever you're working with at some point, to actually up-skill themselves, making sure that they have the right skills.
Like, I said, karma comes around. So actually, I am grateful because I think we got a lot of, effectively we call [unclear 00:37:15] people, people did us favours and introduced us to other people, and a lot of that was, I guess, because wh en you build a culture of care, that sounds maybe a bit too big, but it’s like, if you care for your friends and your industry and your world, I think people understand that.
The same thing as like your customers or for us it's players, you can see when something is made with love and you can see when the relationships are also considered carefully. I think that's something that is important, it's practical in the long run in fact.
Jayce: I think for a lot of creative individuals, we all have a dream, we all start with a passion, but the thing is, living in high stress Singapore, sometimes after one point you're probably like, “Okay, what am I doing here?” Or maybe your family will be asking, “What are you doing going after your dreams?”
Have you ever encountered a moment like this where it's like really at the low point and then you are struggling, how do you actually pick yourself up again and say, “Yes I'm going to continue to build my dream”?
Ashima: How often do I feel that way? You know, it's sort of the journey of entrepreneurship, is that, it's ups and downs, probably freelance as well, it's the same, you have good days and you have bad days. Definitely, there are the days where you are like, “Why did I do this to myself?” But I do really believe actually in what Shawn was saying about the dream. At the end of the day, when you have nothing left and it's just you and you're like, “Why am I doing this?” It is that one thing that will pick you up, and so you need to really just believe that you are going to get where you are planning to go, and the journey is going to be whatever it is. But I think you have to have that belief, and if you're on your own it's hard I think
I have a team, I have a co-founder, so we, kind of, can help, support each other. So, I think it is harder, so hats off to freelancers who reach that point and can still pull themselves up, but I'm truly a believer in that, just having a vision of where you want to go.
Jayce: And just push it along.
Shawn: My input on that actually is slightly different. So, I think it's more like you realize you're never truly alone. I mean forgive me, but if you feel a little bit like shit, right? Let's just assume you have some decent friends.
Jayce: It is important to have some decent friends, so spend some time looking for it.
Shawn: It’s important to still be connected to a community somewhere. So, they might not necessarily even be your colleagues, they might not necessarily be your blood family or whatever, but even for us, small things like, we have a Facebook page for the games, and people every now and then are like, “Hey, so we saw the game at GameStart and when is it coming out?” And you're just like, on one hand it's a bit of stress, you're like, “Soon guys,” but on the other hand you're like, “Okay. There are people waiting for this, I've got to do it justice.”
But, I think as long as you're connected with a community, you're never truly alone. The fact that there are people out there who probably feel the same way you do, a lot of freelancers, even bosses actually, will be like, “Stability issues, I wish we had all of this secure for the next ten years, that would be amazing.”
Jayce: “We have the funding for all the ten games that we want to do.”
Shawn: Yeah, that would be great, that would be amazing, that would be great. But truly, you're not alone, because if you were to reach out, even if you like blend it down into like, it's not just freelancers, but if you look at co-founders, and you just type in co-founders into something like meetup.com or Facebook, you'll find, “Co-founders meetup group.” Definitely there's people there you can talk to about all the things you're worried about. Freelancers groups, in fact, there's even more. I would in fact say, yeah, you're not alone in this. You’re not alone.
Ashima: It's also something I don't think people talk about enough, like…
Yen-Lyng: Needing the support group?
Ashima: Yeah, I mean just the fact that there are these really low points. Everyone tends to kind of want to show the best, that everything's fine, it's all good.
Yen-Lyng: “Being an entrepreneur rocks.”
Jayce: Just like Instagram, right? “Everything is nice.”
Ashima: Yeah, if you are, I guess, okay with sharing about that with other people, you're right, there will be so many other people out there who are like, “Yeah, I feel the same way.”
Yen-Lyng: Yeah, that's right. I think it's where people feel, “The moment that I start sharing about my down points means I need help.” Yeah, maybe you do need help but people… I think it's the stigma that, “I might feel pitiful,” in a way.
Jayce: Or is this a more Asian mindset? “If I tell you I cannot do so, I feel myself weak, but I don’t want to disclose my weak side to you.” Is it to do with culture, value kind of thing?
Shawn: I don't think so. I don't think so, I think it's more like old-school, maybe, or it's just human insecurity. I think there's a different kind of strength, maybe, in being vulnerable, and sometimes you don't know, like, your trouble might be someone's [unclear 00:43:25].
So, I think if people attempt to see it that way, then it's less threatening. Definitely there's a point where you're feeling vulnerable, you don't want to show anything at all, I think I understand that. But, ironically, sometimes reaching out helps on multiple levels.
Yen-Lyng: Opens new doors.
Ashima: Yeah, true.
Yen-Lyng: I once heard a saying, “People are actually more afraid of embarrassment than of death.” So that's why people get stage fright, they don't want to express themselves, they don't want to stand up there, they're afraid they'll get laughed at somehow and that's terrible in their minds, and they just shake. So, they'd rather let opportunities go, they'd rather not step up because they just don't want to face it.
Jayce: So, we talked about the lowest point in life, so maybe you'd like to share with us what's the highest point so far in your career as an entrepreneur?
Yen-Lyng: I'm sure there are a lot more coming but what is it so far?
Shawn: I think it's actually being at some of the game conventions with my team. So, we actually had an early prototype last year, Tokyo Gameshow and again at GameStart Asia, but Tokyo Gameshow is the first one, and some of the team wanted to come along. Well number one, it was Tokyo, number two, actually I really wanted them to see what, number one, the industry looked like outside. Number two, I think it's a totally different level when you see people who don't know you at all, play your game. That's honest feedback right there. So, I think we were kind of crapping our pants a bit, all very nervous, so much setting up to do…
Jayce: And it's Tokyo, right? It's in a country that has…
Shawn: Yeah, there's a bit of a language barrier as well, but then when some of the people came by, and the publishers came by, everybody was like, “Oh, when is this game done?” And you're like, “Actually, not yet. It's not done yet,” and they're like, “It looks like it's coming along great.”
So, I think you're really happy and exhilarated, what you're working on means something, and again like I said, that comes back again when they message you on Facebook, like, “Hey, we saw this game, whatever, last year, is it done yet?” And I'm like, “We're working on it.”
But yeah, I think that definitely, and again at GameStart, when we set it up, and people came by to play your game, I would just watch them, “What are they doing, oh my God, we didn't fix that, oh my God, I thought we fixed it,” and people don't notice anything, they just continue playing on and you're just like, “So you know, you can do this,” and sometimes your teammate nudges you or you nudge them and it's like, “Don't say that, we can't screw this up. Just watch them play this.” Then they go like, “Oh that's nice, so when is it coming out?” You know, that question? And you go like, “Soon,” kind of thing. I think that makes everything worth it. That makes everything worth it. Yeah.
Yen-Lyng: Great. How about you Ashima?
Ashima: It's kind of similar. We took the teaser for The Phoenix on the road, so we went to a few comic cons around the region and actually Indonesia was amazing because we were in Jakarta and we had no idea what to expect and we were demoing. It was a three-minute piece on the Samsung Gear VR and our booth got completely mobbed by people, and people who came and said, “I brought my friends, I watched it and brought my friends.” Or someone who came and said, “Someone told me to come and watch this.”
One of the things about the VR industry, which a lot of people know who are in it, is that when you watch someone have their first experience and it's a good one, there's this moment where they take off a headset and the expression on their face is like unadulterated awe. I mean, I call it awe, and it's one of those things that you never really get in life that often, these truly, like unadulterated experiences of awe, like you're a little kid and something's just happened and you're just like, “Wow.”
Yen-Lyng: Someone else that goes, “Wow.”
Ashima: Someone else’s wow. So, you see that over and over again and it's just like an addictive kind of amazing thing to see, and that really is what keeps us going, because creating the content is hard, it's hard work, it's painstaking, but thinking that you can give that to someone is the thing that keeps us going, that is a massive high.
Jayce: Worth a thousand, million dollars, yeah?
Ashima: Yeah.
Shawn: That's how you hope it translates.
Ashima: Just turn it into money.
Yen-Lyng: Well with the whole journey that you guys have been in, if you could give one piece of advice to when you guys were just starting out, or maybe even before that, to your younger self maybe, what would you say?
Shawn: That's a tough one.
Jayce: Don't worry, take some time to think about it.
Yen-Lyng: A lot of things.
Shawn: Well I think, for me, I can't actually complain. The journey has been tough, but at each junction there was something to learn, there were friends to make, contacts to make, that sort of thing. So, I think it was necessary. If there's any advice it would be like, “Pay more attention to stuff.” I don't know.
Jayce: Or, do more. Do more.
Shawn: I mean, you can always say, do more, but sometimes I think it's also, do the reverse, learn to chill out a bit. What you're panicking about was not worth panicking about. That was not worth freaking out about.
So maybe, yeah, it's strangely the reverse. If I'm talking about myself younger self I'm a bit of a worrywart. I get obsessive, and it's like, “Oh my God, I didn't channel everything to solve this.” I'd be like, “Chill out dude, step back, look at the bigger picture.” Because I think that is something that we… I mean, I see a lot of people sort of fall into that trap, and no, what you're doing right now is both good and bad right, right? It doesn't matter that much in the long run, if you're embarrassed about some things, don't worry, it won't matter much, it's more like, did you learn something from this? And then this is going to teach you something anyway, but the world wasn't necessarily going to blow up.
Jayce: Yeah, I think that's a very good point, because I was from the corporate sector as well, so when I first moved into this entrepreneurship, create your own business kind of thing, one of the mentors, actually the first thing he told me is, “Jayce, you are going to start to do this yourself, but please remember everything happens for a reason, good and bad. Just learn from it.” I feel that that is actually the most important advice that I have received and it's at the start of the career, in that sense. So, every time going back, we just tell ourselves, “Don't worry. It'll pass.”
Shawn: Well the catch for this is, unless it kills you. So, it's all fine until it kills you.
Jayce: But like he said, it happens for a reason, so to us it may be even worse, but this is okay, we can handle this.
Yen-Lyng: It’s not so bad.
Jayce: Yeah, it’s not so bad.
Shawn: But most of the things that I think people worry about is not actually a thing that's going to be serious, it's the things you can't spot, that's where you're really in trouble.
Jayce: Right, right, that's true. So Ashima, how about yourself? What would you tell your younger self?
Ashima: I think, persist, just be persistent, so it doesn't have to be big leaps you're making, but just keep moving slowly in the right direction and just persist. Because the one thing about this journey, like, if you asked me a year ago to predict some of the things that have happened to me on this journey, I would never, in a million years, like it just takes you in twists and turns that you just wouldn't expect. So, you just persist, just keep going, one small step, one small step.
Yen-Lyng: Yeah, that's what I say, sometimes it's the things that you don't see.
Shawn: Yeah.
Ashima: And the times when you feel like, “Why am I doing this?” You just persist, just keep going.
Jayce: Yeah, persisting is important to a freelancer as well.
Alright, thank you so much for joining us on this podcast, it has really been an insightful discussion, but before we start to wrap up, would you like to tell the audience again, Shawn would you like to tell the audience about your game and where they can find it, when is it coming?
Yen-Lyng: A free plug.
Shawn: Basically, go on Facebook, search Battlesky Brigade, that's B-A-T-T-L-E-S-K-Y B-R-I-G-A-D-E, Battlesky Brigade, it'll pop up. Easy, just Google that.
Yen-Lyng: Very cute.
Shawn: Yeah, cute bunnies, airships, floating islands, that sort of thing.
Jayce: Yeah, so remember, the Facebook accounts and then Ashima yourself?
Ashima: Yes, so if you want to be up to date on what's happening with The Phoenix, you can go to ThePhoenixVR.com and for our company in general, Warrior9VR.com.
Jayce: So, how do you actually manage your time as a business owner? Just like freelancers right, they have to do everything themselves, showcasing, looking for deals and doing their craft. So, do you actually allocate your time so that you ensure that all things get done?
Shawn: I think it’s about, for me at least, it's about values first. I mean yes, you're spending time on the admin or whatever stuff that you don't necessarily want to do, but I see it as building for the future. So, the same thing with the freelancers, for an example, giving a proper reply to someone I can't hire for this gig or something, but who has potential, I see it as, “I may not need your help now, I might need it later,” and the odds that I'll need it later are actually pretty high because the industry is that small. In a way it's, if I do you a favour now, it's paying it forward. I mean I've been on the ground when it was really, truly tough times.
Jayce: Do you mean in the games industry? Local games industry?
Shawn: Yeah, the games industry, and sometimes freelancing. If someone gives you a gig and then they turn around and the terms weren't exactly what it was, I think you remember that feeling, it's very personal and sometimes it's awful, and you also know what it feels like when you get great people to work with, you remember that as well.
So, if you ask like, “What kind of world do I want to build?” I mean that's a philosophical one maybe, but if you look at why most of us that start companies, do, especially like yourselves starting, a founder, your technical founder as well, creatively involved founder, then it's because you have a dream that you believe in. So, you want to build certain things in a certain way as well. It's not just building a product, you're building a whole world or a culture, and I think that's important, especially again, for creative industry.
Like, I said, karma comes around. So actually, I am grateful because I think we got a lot of, effectively we call people, people did us favours and introduced us to other people, and a lot of that was, I guess, because when you build a culture of care, that sounds maybe a bit too big, but it’s like, if you care for your friends and your industry and your world, I think people understand that.
The same thing as like your customers or for us it's players, you can see when something is made with love and you can see when the relationships are also considered carefully. I think that's something that is important, it's practical in the long run in fact.
Jayce: So Ashima, for the VR industry, because that is really fairly new in Singapore as well, as we all know there's not a lot of existing talent that you can tap on. So, what are some of the trends that you see in the upcoming VR industries, and also, what do you think are some of the opportunities that new freelancers can work towards?
Ashima: So, the VR industry is quite wide, there's two parts to it. One is 360 filming, kind of, so live action content and then the other is CG, which isn't happening as much as live action. I think in Singapore, what I've seen over the last, maybe six to eight months, is that there's a lot more real interest from companies about going into that type of content.
So previously, we'd go out to the market and most people would be like, “Oh it's interesting and I know it's a new thing, but I just don't really see how it applies to me right now,” and then suddenly this shift happened where it's like, “We actually really want to explore how we can do this, so can you help us to do that?”
So, I see the interesting opportunities are beginning to grow and the tools are also getting more accessible. For example, with AR, Facebook released AR Studio, which is available to download, anyone can use it. So, I think that what a lot of… There are classes as well happening now, in some of the Poly's, in some of the independent schools to teach the basics of VR creation, and kind of going back to your point about having something to show, you can just try it on your own, that's the big thing
So, for example, the base engine that we use to create our content is Unreal Engine. That's a free software, so our team is self-taught. There's a lot of information online about how to use it, and it kind of speaks to that person’s kind of mindset, that they're a self-starter, they're willing to just spend some time up-skilling themselves on their own. Those things make a difference. Like when I meet someone and they're like, “Oh yeah, so I just bought this 360 camera and I started making things and here's something I can show,” and I'm like, “Oh wow, okay.” That's more of a conversation starter than anything.
Jayce: So Ashima, how about yourself? What would you tell your younger self?
Ashima: I think, persist, just be persistent, so it doesn't have to be big leaps you're making, but just keep moving slowly in the right direction and just persist. Because the one thing about this journey, like, if you asked me a year ago to predict some of the things that have happened to me on this journey, I would never, in a million years, like it just takes you in twists and turns that you just wouldn't expect. So, you just persist, just keep going, one small step, one small step.
Yen-Lyng: Yeah, that's what I say, sometimes it's the things that you don't see.
Shawn: Yeah.
Ashima: And the times when you feel like, “Why am I doing this?” You just persist, just keep going.
Yen-Lyng: Well with the whole journey that you guys have been in, if you could give one piece of advice to when you guys were just starting out, or maybe even before that, to your younger self maybe, what would you say?
Shawn: That's a tough one.
Jayce: Don't worry, take some time to think about it.
Yen-Lyng: A lot of things.
Shawn: Well I think, for me, I can't actually complain. The journey has been tough, but at each junction there was something to learn, there were friends to make, contacts to make, that sort of thing. So, I think it was necessary. If there's any advice it would be like, “Pay more attention to stuff.” I don't know.
Jayce: Or, do more. Do more.
Shawn: I mean, you can always say, do more, but sometimes I think it's also, do the reverse, learn to chill out a bit. What you're panicking about was not worth panicking about. That was not worth freaking out about.
So maybe, yeah, it's strangely the reverse. If I'm talking about myself younger self I'm a bit of a worrywart. I get obsessive, and it's like, “Oh my God, I didn't channel everything to solve this.” I'd be like, “Chill out dude, step back, look at the bigger picture.” Because I think that is something that we… I mean, I see a lot of people sort of fall into that trap, and no, what you're doing right now is both good and bad right, right? It doesn't matter that much in the long run, if you're embarrassed about some things, don't worry, it won't matter much, it's more like, did you learn something from this? And then this is going to teach you something anyway, but the world wasn't necessarily going to blow up.
Jayce: Yeah, I think that's a very good point, because I was from the corporate sector as well, so when I first moved into this entrepreneurship, create your own business kind of thing, one of the mentors, actually the first thing he told me is, “Jayce, you are going to start to do this yourself, but please remember everything happens for a reason, good and bad. Just learn from it.” I feel that that is actually the most important advice that I have received and it's at the start of the career, in that sense. So, every time going back, we just tell ourselves, “Don't worry. It'll pass.”
Shawn: Well the catch for this is, unless it kills you. So, it's all fine until it kills you.
Jayce: But like he said, it happens for a reason, so to us it may be even worse, but this is okay, we can handle this.
Yen-Lyng: It’s not so bad.
Jayce: Yeah, it’s not so bad.
Shawn: But most of the things that I think people worry about is not actually a thing that's going to be serious, it's the things you can't spot, that's where you're really in trouble.
Jayce: That's right, so until then, bye everyone.
Yen-Lyng: Bye.