Make Freelancing A Viable Career Path f. Ang Hin Kee

Jayce: Hi good morning everyone, this is Jayce. 

Fanny: And Fanny.

Jayce: Welcome to Freelance Creative Exchange, where every episode, we speak to a freelancer about freelancing and the gig economy. 

Fanny: Yeah, here today we have Mr. Ang Hin Kee, Member of Parliament of the Ang Mo Kio Group Representation Constituency for Cheng San-Seletar from 2011. 

Jayce: He’s also the SSN Director General for the National Trades Union Congress, in short, the NTUC, and directors of NTUC Self Freelancers, and Self Employed Professionals. Hi Mr. Ang!

Mr Ang: Yeah, the only unique thing is I’m not a freelancer, but I’m involved in the work of freelancers.Jayce: Yes, yes, that’s right. And that’s why you’re very important to the local freelancer industry, and all freelancers out there, you guys make sure that you tune in to our podcast this week. Mr. Ang, would you be able to actually start sharing with us about NTUC, I would say, missions, and also objectives for freelancers as a self employed unit. And how did it come about in the first place?

Mr Ang: The trade union movement in any country, especially locally, looks at the needs of working people. So working people, in today’s context, would be somebody who is employed by someone; it could be also be a self employed person. They may run a small business, or he could be a working person as a freelancer. So looking at it from a very broad perspective, I think any issues facing our working people in Singapore is a method we want to get involved in, and look at what are their concerns.And perhaps, find new solutions to address some of the issues that they face. That may affect their daily lives, their income, their sustainability. And more importantly, for many of them, how do you set conditions right so that their passion, in this particular field or vocation, can be realized. 

Fanny: Right, yeah. So NTUC has also conducted a lot of focus group discussions, with freelancers, with companies, etc. So would you be able to share with some of the discussions’ outcome, as well as the MOM for work group recommendations? So that our audience will be able to understand more about this?

Jayce: I think globally, everybody gets a sense of the fact that this is a good economy thing. And this freelancing thing seems to be on the rise. But in the local context, when we’ve held many focus group discussions with our freelancers, three main issues cropped up. One is, how to expand my business. How do I get more network, how do I get more people to know about my work. My abilities, my competencies. And what avenues are there to help me perhaps share, or enter into the market, to sell to say, a public sector, to sell to MSE, to sell to companies who previously may have sought other alternatives. So first, how to explain my markets. Second concern was, how do I therefore, when I face problems, especially with regards to contractual dispute, collection of money for work done.  Issues dealing with ability to sort of collect payment for the services that you have done, and disputes that may arise due to misunderstandings, or different interpretation of what is the work description, and what is the outcome. So the dispute is the second thing.  And the third many face is sometimes, inevitably, you fall sick, or get injured by a hockey stick, by coaching a group of students about the game of hockey. And you may fracture your leg, or there may be a fractured ankle, and you’re out of action for maybe ten days or so.  For freelancers, you either dip into your savings, or you look for a loss of income insurance package. And for many of them, when they try to seek such insurance for that, because it’s not something that is a very big market in Singapore. So previously, these products were not available. So their concern was, when I’m sick or injured, for a long period, what do I do with this so called loss of income.

Fanny: Yeah. I think those are very real challenges and issues. So I think for NTUC [Inaudible - concept], because you look at the various sectors in that sense.  There’s freelancers in almost every sector. So how do you actually try to balance in terms of your recommendations; how do you ensure that you actually cater to the masses, instead of just a like, specific group of people only.

Mr Ang:  So there’s broad costs and there’s narrow costs, right. When you talk about broad costs, generic issues like, how do you therefore work out contracts that are clear. Dispute resolution that may be applicable to all mediation processes.  I think it’s a very broad -- an appreciation, a positive image, of what is a freelancing career. These are really issues that I think would address most freelancers. When you narrow costs that you may have a particular vocation that says maybe I need deeper training in the field of learning from gurus or experts in my field. So you need to customize the training to that requirement. Say for example, there’s a visiting expert who has just won an oscar in videography, or in certain cinema photography. Then you want to be able to secure a two hour workshop, to learn from such a person, because it’s a very rare occurrence. So rather than just looking for such opportunity, we try to facilitate, provide funding, provide venues, and do that link up. So for that two hours, the freelancers in this particular field, will get the best exposure, best exchange, and insight into what the gurus in the trade have to share with them about.

Jayce: And NTUC has been doing this for a while already. So back when you first started, where I believe not a lot of people understood how the gig economy works. You probably faced certain challenges.  So fast forward to today, how do you see the industry progress, like from a few years ago to today?

Mr Ang: I think we look about three years ago, and we first molded this idea of the movement, looking after freelancers. It was not a new concept then, because three years ago, we already had outreached to the taxi drivers.  Who essentially are self employed freelancers. We have outreached to tour guides. Real estate agents, insurance agents, dog trainers  these were people that were very familiar with the issues they face, and we had different people looking after them. Then, when you start to see the economy shifting, and more and more people entering into different vocations, on a freelance basis, you started to want to say, hey look.  What more can we do. So we started to meet up with people in the field of  photography, creative arts, makeup. And then coaching, coaching in terms of various sports. Then there are people who do instructing let’s say, for music, for orchestra. Then people in the fitness field.  The teachers, they started to see -- and the vocation that people got involved in is very diverse, and we needed to understand, what happened to the shift? Why is it that they became so diverse and then numbers grew.  Then, one thing that cropped up in all of the discussions was the fact that there was this tool, either through a platform, whereby you could introduce service providers and bias, and then you could do that matching. In the past, you may have to depend on a friend to refer to.  You’d say, oh my daughter would like to learn how to swim, do you have someone that you could introduce to me. Or I’m getting married next month, I saw your wedding photos, they were wonderful for you, recommend me.  So people rely on word of mouth, and then when this kind of website or this kind of platform emerged, it enabled all of those with abilities, skills, competencies, who want to freelance and offer their services, to be matched with more people. And others could look at, say, previous experiences shared by different consumers, and look at the ratings, look at the portfolio. And that platform allows for a very cheap and quick way of individuals showcasing their work.  And also for users, giving curated rating to the services. It gives a consumer more choice and confidence; so I think with that kind of tool, freelancers started to be [Inaudible] -- they  became more viable. So whether you are still pursuing your studies, you could take time off your studies to do some freelance work.  You could be employed by someone, and over the weekend, you may be very good in translation, so there may be a conference, or there may be a particular tour group, that requires some technical translation of some of the -- say they were here to understand about the economic development of Singapore. So you need somebody who has technical competency in translation.  So employees, or students, or even, or housewives, or retirees, could offer their services. And as that grew, I think more and more people found it more viable, to do all they need on a full time basis.

Fanny: So what is your vision for the freelance landscape in Singapore in the next ten years?

Mr Ang: This is more the vision of what the freelancers shared they would like to see. One is they would like to see that people look at them with a more positive view, that this is a new form of employment. It is not a transitional thing; it is not a, I’m retired, so I’ve got time on my hands. I dabble in it on an occasional basis. They actually invest their time, skills, [Inaudible] their competencies and they’re professionals in their field. So I think a positive image and the right image of the sacrifices, and the professionalism of the vocation is what many hope to see over the next few years. And that includes a potential money loss. Your daughter brings back a boyfriend, so and so,  university, we got to know each other. Oh, what job do you do? I’m freelancing and he is like, okay, what future can you give to my daughter.  I think that we need to look at the fact that economic globalization has shifted many economic structures, to be disrupted. And what is viable 20 years ago, and what is viable 10 years ago, and what is viable today, and ten years later, will shift.   Many things that we thought would not happen has happened. Homes could become AirBnB; private cars can become shared vehicles. And so things have shifted, and looking forward, I think this vocation and this place in the economic structure will remain.  So I think generally, all of us should embrace those who are involved in it, and look at it in a more positive light. So I think that’s one very key area. I think the second key area is that once you’re a working person involved in freelancing, let’s not forget that you also have medical concerns with  needs, housing needs.   And therefore, how do we shape the payment system and the saving system, so that they can be like other working persons, have a saving system in place, to help the with their retirement. Or what we call people call the CPS system, your central fund whereby we help you save for your medical needs, your retirement and your housing needs.  Now, a similar structure today is only partially available to the freelancer. You can still subscribe, but I think that, moving forward, is a challenge that everyone faces in trying to help the freelancers make that a reality. And so that they can be more viable, and they’re not put at risk; as compared to those who are employed by someone else. 

Jayce:  Yeah, but I think -- thanks a lot Mr. Ang for sharing. I think the first part of it which is the mindset part is actually very important, because Fanny has a personal story to share. 

Fanny: Four years I was applying -- I was getting a place on my own, so I had to fill out application forms.   And I was a freelancer now -- it was six years ago, but I was looking for a box to tick. And then the agent told me, I had to check in the odd job, laborer. 

Jayce: Odd job laborer.

Fanny:     There’s no option for freelancer, you just say self employed. The only option is odd job laborer. 

Mr Ang: Actually, that experience was shared by some of the graduates from the university, and from some of our institutes of higher learning. You know they do this post graduation employment survey.   Many columns, but there was none for  freelancer and self employed, because I think conventionally, people look at the fact that they are self educated, trained, and look for a job; or be your own boss, those are the two alternatives, right.   The third one is take over the family business or something. So those are the alternatives. And this was taught by the mainstream. So there was no such box available. But I think increasingly, what we need to do is really to give it its rightful place, and the mindset of public, the mindset of our planners, our regulators, and our employers.  If you go for an interview, and perhaps you’re on the shift from being a freelancer to employee, and then a person says, what have you been doing for the last five years? I’ve been freelancing. Oh, so nothing much, yeah?   But on the contrary, you should [say], I’ve been freelancing, and I’ve exposed myself to different clients, I’ve dealt with different needs. I’ve worked for MNCs, for local companies, for SMEs, Singapore, regional.  I’ve been able to address the needs of different demands. I’ve delighted my clients, whether they are from -- whichever industry. And therefore, I’ve been viable.  So I demonstrate my resilience, my versatility, and my creativity. So don’t look at it as, oh, freelancing means odd job laborer. I think that means conception needs to be addressed, to like what we said earlier. Like give it its rightful place. 

Jayce:  Yeah, that’s right, and the last part I actually attribute to the company, which is the hirer; people who actually engage freelance services. I think right now, the mindset of a lot of companies is -- when we first started with CreativesAtWork, it started six years ago. So we tell our client what we were doing and they said, what do you mean, freelancer? You don’t have any full time employees? Then the next question is, are they reliable, do they runaway? There’s a lot of “misconceptions” in that sense.  So how do you see NTUC plan to actually see how we can shift some of the mindsets of those SME bosses as well, in terms of adopting freelance service.

Mr Ang: I think employers, or procurement managers, have traditionally looked at how to hire someone, or outsource it through a third party agency.  Somebody says to XYZ company, you’ve got to look for the freelancers, or your own employees, to undertake this project. Whether it’s a D&D event, a sports day, or a company, an anniversary or celebration. I find a thirty party proxy, you can look for it. So basically, I keep my hands clean of what you do. So just deliver the outcome. So increasingly, I think what we wanted to demonstrate to a lot of these buyers is that actually, you can buy past the middleman. You can go direct to the freelancers. The freelancers themselves could assemble their own pool of known talent in the industry, and no need to use. You also can look through the platforms, and look at the fact that there were people who have appraised them.  So you do need to do some homework, but that homework gives you a better assurance, rather than, I just look for a brand name who will do the job for me. Now, what are the differences in these two.   We’ve been talking to a lot of the SME groups in Singapore, Business Federation, ministries, because these are very major buyers. And some have found the experience very delightful; some have found the experience very painful.  The painful experiences [is] because they didn’t know about platforms, they didn’t know about the fact that there were ratings and what to do. They were relying on, okay, I call you, can you manage this for me. But on the other hand, when they go on holiday, they look at hotels, they look at reviews, they look at places, attractions, and study which ones are worth going [to], and look at different modes of transportation, which are more reliable. So if they apply the same kind of homework they do for their holiday into their workplace, actually, it doesn’t take a lot of effort.  All it takes is, do some basic research, give yourself a better insight and assurance, rather than just depending on a brand name, or name of a company and say that, okay, because of you, I leave everything to you. Investing in that will give you two outcomes. One is that you have greater certainty of who is behind this, and what other people have said about so and so.   Secondly, you give yourself a wider array of talent and options, which sometimes, when you outsource to a third party, the person may not give you that spread; they may just give you options that they are more lawyered to, or their affinity to. And so you actually shortchange yourself in the process.  So I think what NUTC has tried to do over the last two years is other than talking to the freelancer and addressing their needs directly, we actually needed to spend more time on expanding the marketplace for them. So if buyers start to appreciate them, know how to assess them, understand what they can do.   Get a chance to listen to what other freelancers have to offer; get a chance to look at how their procurement system can be tweaked, to not look at them as odd job laborer. To be able to say, look, this is how you should procure. This is how you can incorporate the freelancer needs.  So with many sessions, I had discussions with ministry of finances, procurement team, the Singapore Business Federation Group, together with SMEs. Particularly SMEs, because many of them require the help of freelancers. We’ve been talking to different business communities, to be able to shed light, into what this pool of talent in Singapore is able to either compliment their own existing core team.  Or give a wider birth, and greater [Inaudible], so that the businesses can be more competitive. Be able to say, deliver the best outcome to the clients that they seek to serve.

Fanny: So do you sense that there’s a chance in their mindset, given the last three years push of freelancing.  Do you see more companies wanting to freelancers?

Jayce: What is the progress like, are you having good progress so far?

Mr Ang: I think two things work in the favor of freelancers over the last three years. There is a manpower crunch in Singapore, as we expand our business, and our -- we invite more investment into our local market. Whether it’s the tech world, the digital side, new businesses coming in, etc. You realize that actually to develop this talent will take some time. And then, you don’t know whether your business is going to go deep into this, or just wanted to test out some projects. So far, our local businesses, the manpower crunch, gives opportunity for freelancers to compliment their [Inaudible]. So that’s one.  Second thing they were not in favor of was the fact that the freelancers brought along with them new talent, new expertise, which companies started to realize, this is almost like a pilot test opportunity. I could engage the services of the freelancer and found that it actually grew my business.  And from there, I started to say either, hire the freelancer on a full time basis, or I started to get myself involved in it, and use freelancers as a guiding post. As to whether [or not] this is a viable business.  So many have started to expand into digital marketing, into data analytics, because previously, they have engaged freelancers to deliver these services, and they themselves learn from it. Their clients find them more competitive, and they started to understand, oh, they’re a pool of talent.  So the HR staff started to understand how to hire people in this field, because I spoke to them; they didn’t even know how to write out a job description for a data analyst. Somebody who understands and is able to analyze data. It was like -- it’s not a traditional job you start to be able to understand. So through working for a freelancer, they start to, oh, you mean you can do this, you’re able to deliver this. So it helped them crystallize in their thoughts, how do I work with and better compliment your core strength with the freelancers that are out there. 

Fanny:  I mean based on the study in the U.S., by 2025, half of the U.S. population, working population, are going to be freelancers or contract persons, rather than full time hires. Do you foresee that to be the same case for Singapore any time soon as well?

Mr Ang:  Today, we have one end tail of our workforce involved in self employed, freelance work. I think in any job, whether you’re a freelancer or an employee, the one thing that we are most concerned with is not whether, how many people are employed there.  One thing we’re concerned with, on both sides of the coin, is are you underemployed. Are you maximizing your potential. Say for example, you have a population that’s 100% employed; it looks great, you have a zero unemployment rate.  But if everybody is doing a very low level job, it doesn’t fulfill that potential. That doesn’t  quite well for the economy, or for the individual. What you really want is a situation whereby whether you’re an employee a freelancer, whether you call it gig economy, or whichever terminology you have.  The person fulfills his best potential, has security for a job, medical needs, retirement, and can deliver his passion. And for many of the freelancers, it would be demonstration of my mastery in my vocation. So I think moving forward, this ratio in Singapore will not change too much.  What will need to change is the diversity of freelancers that are out there. Today, we already see a growing spectrum of people who are then data analytics, involved in their field from HR to finance, to auditing, to finance and marketing. To -- then your individual service provider, whether it’s providing coaching, driving etc.  So I think that field will grow. But what I would consider most critical is, are you very portable. Are you able to toggle between being an employee and a freelancer, and move either way, as and when the market changes. So when you’re portable, that means you’re able to be adaptable in this field or this field, and you have the skillset to be employable in both arenas. That gives you certainty. So when the market shifts for instance, this market is not doing so well at this juncture, you can easily move to the other side.  I think it’s more critical. So I would want to spend a lot more time and effort in ensuring the skills levels, they deepen, widen and they are more employable. And once they are employable in anything, then their options are there. Which, therefore, sort of protect them from any major shifts.  I think that is most critical. In the case of the U.S., I think the  economic structure there has undergone many changes over the last few years. Previously, before this gig economy came about, you heard about the entrepreneurship businesses.   They can boom for two years, they can go under, and then the whole group will shift to another business. And then, the environment allows them to fill and start again, fill and start again. So it’s almost like a phoenix.   That [it’s] your big moment of glory, burn to ashes, and then reborn again. But that same mindset shifted into the gig economy and freelance work. I think those were major disruptions. You can imagine what would happen to your savings, to your retirement plan, your housing plan. It keeps getting that up and down.  I think what we want to do is really give certainty to our working people is, if we can have more jobs coming in where the freelancers are employed, have -- you possess the right skills, make you employable. Once you’re able to toggle between the two, whether working locally overseas.  Whether being a self employed freelancer and working for someone. That expands your options. I think there’s no greater certainty than those kinds of options being made available to the working people in Singapore. 

Jayce:   For freelancers who are offering their services on the remote basis, they are faced with global competition. What advice do you have for Singaporean freelancers?

Mr Ang:  This concept came about four or five years ago, it’s about, do you want less competition, or do you want to be more competitive? If you want less competition, then you close off to the market; you say, let’s not have these, let’s restrict that, and let’s have less competition.  Let’s play among ourselves. Let’s compete among the football teams within Singapore, and let’s not go global; let’s just win a gold medal between North East this street and South West, this street, so who is the best from these streets.  That’s called less competition. But when you want to be more competitive, you say, I can be competing with the best in the world. That means I’m more competitive.  Once you’re more competitive, you’re not talking to yourself. You’re actually telling your clients, your potential buyer of services, I have an array of abilities to offer to you. Not only my professional skills are there, we have a proper system of curating what we can do.  We have a proper system of payment, dispute resolution,  mediation, in process in place. That gives you certainty. It has to be a bundle package. If you always invest in the cheapest, and look at driving cost down, the best talent will shift somewhere else. Because they say, if everything is based on the lowest cost, lowest price and you keep slashing it down, people with the best talent will say, look, this is not making it work for me. Let me go to work somewhere else.  Then you will actually find that the talent pool will shrink; globally or locally, it will shrink. Now, once it shrinks, it does nothing but show you. I think that’s one perspective.  The second perspective would be, some lower cost options that may be available. Can we bundle the two, or I have this talent, and you have a lower cost talent in this field.   If we put these two together, we are actually an even more competitive bid. So when we say we want to work in collaboration or partnership, you don’t really need to look at just collaboration and partnership between local partners.  It could be striking a partnership with someone who is in your same field, or related field, and saying, I’m good at more of the artistic angle; et’s bundle ourselves together. So if you look at some of the -- so recently, there’s this U.S. tennis Open Grand Slam.  When they play mixed doubles or they play doubles, you look at -- the players come from different countries. It’s not like I’m playing for X country for the Olympic games. For them, they have mixed doubles, so it’s so and so from this country and she’s better in the front, I’m better playing from the back, and we form the best team.  So you bundle it all together. Football leagues play the same way; unless you’re playing the World Cup, you play only for your country. So why do they do that? Because they want to be more competitive, rather than less.  

Fanny:   I think that’s very well said. I think that it’s something that we have actual experience with on our freelancing side, that started to get actually a different group of freelancers working together. Actually that was something that we had been doing in our product management and I think the client actually appreciates it.  Because they actually get the maximum, I would say, benefits, from everybody contributing. So it doesn’t have to be everybody has to be same, but each of them may be different in their own ways. So long as you can manage them. 

Mr Ang:  Yeah, and we also have to appreciate that some clients are global , they have different regional offices. So when you’re able to bundle services, they will know that whichever country office can also get a  physical, face to face support; if there is a need to. I know you can actually -- while I have my own regional office, you, the freelancer community, observe your own regional partners, to be able to deliver the same type of services, or equivalent service, whatever country I decided to set foot on. Then, I get the same support.  So to them, I think their global or regional footprint basically means that not only are the supporting industries going to follow them, but I think freelancers can also take opportunity of their global footprint, to enter the new market. So you want to look at it negatively and become -- have less competition. Or let’s be aggressive and be more competitive. I think we have always been advocating Singapore as a market free economy. We would like to compete with the best in the world. We always try to get investments coming from overseas.  We have the new data center from Facebook. Google setting up offices here. It cannot be the cheapest avenue. We are not a cheap venue. But I think when you come to sustainability, electricity, water, other supporting infrastructure, talent. All the logistics.  Electric supply, cybersecurity, the whole bundle makes it work. So that should also apply to our freelancers as well.

Jayce:   Yeah, so I guess a lot of freelancers also will probably agree with you, but in your last three years, when you’ve dealt with so many freelancers, meeting them. I’m sure there have been a couple that are a bit more negative and probably -- maybe would ask for more.  Have you come across that situation or such individual, that keeps asking for more and more and more?

Mr Ang: We do encounter some freelancers that are transitioning from -- say maybe they were or their companies move away.  And they were -- already in their career there, you know. And then suddenly, they were forced to have to shift. But when they shift, the first effort was, can I find related company in the same industry.  But when the industry shifts, you realize that everybody is not hiring also. So you couldn’t quite move to another company in the same industry. You can try to change industry, and sometimes that requires skills acquisition, that takes some time to go. So you couldn’t successfully meet it. So some are moving into freelancing. So when they move into freelancing, they realize that yeah, I can serve more clients. But what they were used to is not available anymore. Who is going to pay my leave, my insurance, my medical, my savings, etc. And then I realize have to do it all by myself.   Then, who is going to chase for payment, deal with accounts, deal with marketing, where do I go to --  but they’re not familiar with the fact that there are platforms that are business solution providers. So they were all having to juggle everything in the air at one go. So indeed, frustrating times.  So when we come across some of them, we brought them into a network of freelancer communities, whereby peers could share. We also brought them to meet up with platform owners, and business solutions. So they say, look, why don’t you concentrate 90% of your time on delivering your service.  When it comes to billing and chasing for payment, you could actually outsource it to me. The company will provide you that. You’re not marketing your services, go to the platform, who will be able to match you with one another.  So where you used to go to your HR department, your billing department, your finance, now, you have to just switch terminology -- it goes to so and so and this platform, or this business solution provider. Or meet up, instead of a department meeting, meet with communities.  Maybe people in the same field, who will be able to share with you how to tackle, how to deal with it. So when you start to organize these workshops, some mentor classes. How do I get started being a freelancer. I think you will also [be] partly involved with some of this platform.  I think many questions are like, how do I bill people, how do I charge, how do I chase for payment. And you realize that all of these take up a lot of their time, when their  main job should be the freelancer job. They realize that all of this is taking up precious time.  And they know who to go to. So those are frustrating moments indeed. So I think with platforms, with business solution, with community, with mentoring workshops, many of them have found it to be useful. Of course, there’s a cost involved.  But cost certainly is lower than the price you would be able to gain to your client, if you’ve devoted more time and more energy into servicing the clients out there.

Fanny: Right, yeah. So with the diversity in the, I would say, age group.  We talk about people who are in mid career, and they change, become freelancers; there are also people who choose to become freelancers. And we also see an increasing trend in terms of graduating students. Upon graduation, they already decide, I want to work for myself, I don’t want to work for people, I want to be a freelancer.  So in those cases, for those still younger freelancers, does NTUC treat them differently? Do you have different solutions in place for them? 

Mr Ang:  Yeah, so different cars for different horses, right. So the students who are -- whether they’re in higher learning, in polytechnic, in the university, ITE. When they’re contemplating what to do, even as I plan for my graduation, we work with the ministry of education. They have an employment and career guidance coach. Officers who are stationed in these facilities. And we work with them, to expose them to understanding what is a freelance career about. What are the resources and tools available.  How do you guide and coach individuals who have these questions. And then, we also brought them to participate in our freelancer fairs, in our community meetup.  So these career guidance officers started to see a different world. They start to be able to coach and provide different guidance. Then, we also work with individuals who successfully move from their field of study, and after they graduate, move into freelancing.  So this individual, we use their life story, to share with the other potential students that will be graduating to say that, when I struck out on my own, it didn’t start off my chance. And in my last two years of studies, I actually started to work as a production aide, a photographer’s helper, a stagehand supporter.  And it gave myself an understanding as to how does the industry work. So in my free time, instead of flipping burgers, I started to invest in my time, to devote more investment to my passion. Build up my portfolio, expose myself to the trade. Give myself an opportunity to learn from people who are better and more established in their field.  So they share the fact that you actually can start planning, not two months before you graduate. You can start planning, get involved; even the first day you enter your choice of study institution. Then, as you learn, you start to assess whether maybe, I’m better off being an employee.  Maybe because my service has been in demand, I’ve built up a whole network of clients; the moment of graduate, I already have so many job orders on hand. I couldn’t finish delivering them. And then you say, hey, all of the stars are aligned.  Not because it happened by chance; but because you’ve invested in building your network, establishing your portfolio, and making yourself known to many. So there was this case of this sound and light guy, building sound and light things.  In his studies, in the poly, he started to help out his friend in their production company, to do National Day parade, to do different D&D events etc. So once he finishes poly, he has to go to NS. So during weekends, they also drafted him in.  And then he got himself involved in the Army side of the planning for NEP. So he also started to become sort of part of the organizing community; to be able to give direction, and guide the production crew. [38:50] And then the Army officer found out, said, hey. You seem to know a lot of things about lighting, sound systems, and the rigging parts of how everything will work. Why don’t you work with this production crew etc.   So the industry guys found him to be a perfect match, because he understand what were the requirements, where’s the speaker, where to locate everything and what’s the rigging issues, concerns of the entire team.  So as he built up the portfolio, when he left the initial service, guess what, he had already made himself known to the industry. And people were soughting out his services. So when different clients sought out his services, working for someone versus being a freelancer, he realized that, hey, I didn’t have to work very hard to get that.  ecause I’ve already worked really hard previously, to build up my name, my portfolio, and he was a successful -- I mean he is still, a very successful freelancer, in the lighting and sound industry.

Jayce: So he’s currently working already or has he finished?

Mr Ang:  No, finished already.

Jayce: Oh wow. We would love to meet him as well. 

Mr Ang: I just think this entire process of your academic study shouldn’t be confined to when you’re in an institute of learning. Because after when you graduate, you still pursue learning.  Your exposures to work shouldn’t be reserved to after you graduate, it can start from when you are studying. If you can juggle these two learning processes and you realize that I need to do vocational learning, and academic learning.  We call it skills feature. Typically, the way it works is that -- don’t be [Inaudible] into, okay, this is study time, this is work time. Then you realize, the transition sometimes is a bit abrupt. But if you can mesh it together well, you can actually find that, hey, I could actually easily transit from one to another.  And continue to overlap. That means when I work, I continue to learn, invest in learning. I continue to invest in work. So you basically give yourself the ability to be more hireable, or rather, we call it more employable. 

Jayce:  Yeah, that’s right.

Fanny:  Were there any stories of personal journeys of freelancers that you have heard, or that you have encountered, that have touched you or inspired you?

Mr Ang: Well there’s this young lady who is a freelance dance instructor. Now, she’s both an instructor, but she’s also a performer. So let’s say there’s a stage event, there is a concert, there is a particular series or musical, she will reveal herself to be a performer.  You get paid as a performer. But during the non-performing hours, she will become a dance instructor at a school. Now, that’s a very versatile arrangement of your work life.  You can perform, which builds on your portfolio, because you perform with other dancers. And then you transfer some of these skills back to the teaching world, to teach others. But okay, the instructor for me just performed in this musical.  And when you dance, there’s these new things that you can explore. This is how the industry is adapting, using different lighting, different systems. So you could actually transfer.  But then, along the way, she got injured in one of the performances. Now, when you’re injured in a performance, you need recovery; so you couldn’t perform, and you couldn’t coach also, because you’re injured.   So she was in a fix, because either way, she was stuck. So I think fortunately, she had the foresight to be able to save up to weather some of these rainy days.  Which therefore leads to the next point, which was, I think not all are so ready. So what do we do when some inevitably, for no fault of their own, get injured. Or fall sick, for a long period of time, where there’s a loss of income.  So we’ve been working with the insurance company to pitch the idea to them, to say, why don’t you provide a loss of income insurance coverage for the 223,500 freelancers in Singapore; close to a quarter of a million. So a lot of the insurance companies said, I don’t know how to reach so many of them. And it’s too difficult to talk to different groups.  So we’ve been pitching this idea to them, and finally, two of them have decided to roll out a loss of income insurance product, basically called a prolonged medical leave insurance. And that will basically provide for a payout of say, maybe about 100 dollars a day. If you pay a premium of about a dollar a day. So that will actually give you some form of financial stability, even as you try to recover from your illness or injury. So hopefully, more freelancers will invest and take this on. And the good thing is the government is also taking the lead in preparing themselves, to say okay, we want to be fair to all freelancers.  So for all those who buy such insurance and protect themselves, you cannot compare for those who don’t buy right, because there’s really a price differential. The difference is 365 dollars a year. So how do you therefore leverage the playing field, and hopefully, the government will soon announce a plan to be able to, say, for example, I will only buy freelance service from those that have insurance. Then, everybody will be able to price their premium, paid to the insurance, into their bid price.  And still protect themselves. So don’t take the risk of, oh, I need to win this job, so I don’t buy the insurance, so I can be priced lower.  So if other buyers also think that it can be priced lower. So if other buyers also take the same attitude, I think therefore the investment of the freelancers into such an insurance product can be something that doesn’t impact their business negatively.  So the level playing field is therefore, quite critical for our freelancers.

Jayce: Yeah, I think that is a good move actually because I think a lot of freelancers, because they deal with a lot of other situations, and they have other commitments as well. So sometimes, insurance is not on the top of their mind.  They would never think -- or if you’re young, able...

Fanny: Yeah, invincible.

Jayce: Right. You won’t fall sick, so it doesn’t matter. You’d rather save that amount of money for other things, like buying new stuff, buying new cameras, rather to invest on insurance.

Mr Ang:  Of course, you also want to invest in training and upgrading yourself, so that you can not only be good in your vocation, but you want to add on new skills, in order to take on different projects.   So looking at this issue, therefore we also have been working with the government to see, can we channel more training funds, towards helping the freelancers. And who we’ve seen have also committed to putting part of our training budget into the needs of union members, or freelancers.  So I think other than the skills credit that the government gives to everyone who is above 35,   their investment in SQ training. They’ve also been very generous in supporting initiatives that we propose, that will help develop our freelancers. So you confound some of the training costs that are needed, the union of course invests in a part of it.  So the cost that is borne by freelancers is brought to a lower level, and therefore, it makes it such that you can deepen your skills, gain new competencies. Without having to, say, forego all of these because you have to invest in yourself.  And you don’t invest in training, you don’t invest in insurance, you don’t invest in your medical needs or your retirement, or housing. And therefore, you basically live day by day. Which is not something we want to see a freelancer having to face.  So I think the negative side of the word gig is that gig is somebody who is today got this job, tomorrow, don’t know what will happen. It’s almost living hand to mouth. I don’t think that’s a scenario we want to create; we want to design an environment that avails them to these things.  And yet, be able to allow them to fulfill the passion that they have,  because most of the freelancers we spoke with said, why did you choose this option. Because it’s my passion, because I enjoy the autonomy of being able to do things. And most importantly, I delight in being a mastery of the skills of the vocation I have. So that essentially is the map I have for myself; it’s mastery of skills, autonomy in work, passion in what I do. So that’s the roadmap I have for myself. And you have to therefore help him find that roadmap, and reach his destination, because he has all of it charted out, planned accordingly. And therefore, the best thing we can do is to make sure that the roads are paved, and help him to arrive at his destination.

Fanny:  Right, right. Wow, that’s very interesting. I think that’s what the freelancers will need. 

Mr Ang:  Yeah, and of course along the way, we can’t do it ourselves; there are platform operators that help out, there are business solutions, there is buying communities as a government procurement. If the stars are aligned in this way, you can say that for those with these kind of skill sets and this kind of passion, you can choose this option.  If not, the employee option. Or as you work along here, you can move to this side or either side. I think that avails every sector the best talent that they can have, and every individual, the best opportunity that they would like to seek.

Jayce:  Yeah, and I think that will also ensure that freelancing becomes a viable career, so that your mother in law, your parents, will understand what freelancing is all about. Thank you Mr. Ang for all of your sharing.  So we have actually reached the last part of our sharing. Which is something that we always ask our guests.

Fanny: Is there one piece you would give to your younger self, what would it be?

Mr Ang:  In my younger days, I had worked both locally and overseas. I have worked in China for a period of time. If I were to tell my younger self [something] it would be like, you know, go seek out more opportunities in other regions; other countries. And not because it is more sexy to do so, or because there’s an interesting destination. But to work with different cultures, different environments. You start to build up this competency and this awareness, to be cross culturally aware.  Because you never know at what platform and opportunity you need to work with, different economy, different countries, different cultures. Once you’re able to assimilate, or be able to work cross culturally, you will find that you have gained, your organization would gain, and you will be able to [be] expose[d] to a variety of exciting things out there. Which can only be good, because there is this unique opportunity in Singapore to not only within our country to be exposed globally, but also get a chance to go global, and come back again. And remember, I’ve talked about  this toggling between freelancing.   If I also can advise my younger self, it’s be, please toggle between local, and regional or global, and then you’ll be able to move almost seamlessly between these places. Your life will be further enriched.

Jayce:   Yeah. I think that’s something that we’ve also shared about freelancers. I think as a freelancer, it’s also good for you to have this exposure. And actually in fact, [Inaudible] to see more younger people, who seem to be becoming what we call the digital nomads. They travel while working. 

Mr Ang: We also shouldn’t confine it to only the rights of the younger people, because I think even as you grow older, you can be a different kind of nomad. But the same opportunities will avail to you, regardless of whatever age group you’re in.

Fanny:  Yeah. Thank you. 

Mr Ang: So that’s a note to the older generation. Thank you very much.

Jayce:  Thank you. So thank you for tuning in to another episode of the Freelance Creative Exchange. 

Fanny: Subscribe to iTunes, and leave us a review. 

Jayce: Also subscribe to our YouTube channel, and leave a comment, because we want to know what you want to listen to in our next episode.

Fanny:   Follow us @CreativesAtWork on our Facebook page, as well as our Instagram. 

Jayce:  And join us next time for a brand new episode of the Freelance Creative Exchange.

Fanny: Until then, bye!

Jayce:  Bye! Thank you.

Fanny: Thank you.