Creating Your Personal Brand with Alicia and Wayne

Jayce: Hi everyone, I’m Jayce. Welcome to Freelance Creative Exchange, where every episode, we speak to freelancers about freelancing, and the gig economy. I’m very happy today to be able to invite two of our freelancers here, with us today. So I have Alicia today, here with me. 

Alicia: Hi.

Jayce: And I have Wayne here with me as well.

Wayne: Hello.

Jayce: Alicia is actually a food stylist, photographer, recipes developer. She’s also running a blog to actually share recipes as well as some of the travel guides. And on the other hand, we have Wayne, who is an industry veteran, can I say that.

Wayne: Don’t make me sound so old.

Jayce: Author, writer, copywriter, things like that, but I’ll let them introduce themselves formally to our audience. So Alicia, would you like to share with us more? 

Alicia: Okay. So I just started my blog two years ago, and slowly, I tried to share more of my favorite recipes. Most of them influenced by my mom, or places that I’ve had. Like dinner and restaurants, or a cafe. So yeah. Slowly when I shared these recipes, eventually, I developed photography skills, and styling tips from the internet; from Pinterest and Instagram. So yeah. Throughout the process, I progressed and finally there are people who started asking me, oh, do you want to style some of our cuisine in the restaurant. And slowly, with that affirmation and validation from the clients, I moved up from a full time job as a media producer. And right now, I’m a full time food stylist blogger.

Jayce: Right, wow, okay. Wayne, how about yourself, what’s your story?

Wayne: My story is that I have been a writer since young. I’ve wanted to write since I was a kid, and I think it still the early 2000s, I started professionally working as a writer; first with magazines, then some business writing. Magazine, I did some writing for them. After that, I transitioned into marketing and advertising. I’ve been in there since 2009, I think. And in 2014, I published my first book, right there. And since then -- don’t worry, I will show it off. I will gladly show it off later. I published my first book in 2014, and since then, every year, I’ve been releasing either books or comics, since then.

Jayce: Wow. So as a freelancer, or still as a full time...

Wayne: I started freelancing actually -- if I remember this right. I think it was probably about five years ago. I think I started regularly freelancing -- well, technically, for the second time about five years ago. I started freelancing a bit early in my career, but was very immature about it. And I think that lasted me like a couple of months. And I learned my lesson, and then eventually became a full time freelancer, about five years ago.

Jayce: Right. So after graduation, you went into a full time job, and after that, you freelanced, and then for a few months you went to full time, and now you are back to freelancing. 

Wayne: Back to freelancing again, yes.

Jayce: Right. So we roughly can guess his age in that sense, but definitely a seasoned freelancer. But how about you, Ali, how about yourself?

Alicia: I’m still a baby in this freelance industry. So yeah. I graduated from uni, and then worked in the university as a producer for close to three years. So this is my ninth month freelancing; I’m still figuring things out, sort of exploring who I am, where I’m comfortable, where I’m not comfortable. Yeah. So I’ve got a lot to learn, from the veterans, of course.

Wayne: I can see that’s going to be the theme for this episode, the veteran.

Jayce:  I would just like to actually continue the conversation with Alicia. So what made you decide, after working as an employee in that sense, for three years, what made you want to take the plunge, or to actually come out and say, I’m going to be a freelancer.

Alicia: So I first had the thought like a year ago, and I realized that maybe it is not the time yet; there was always this voice in me telling me, maybe you should go and try it out. Because there were days, after lunch, you’re at work and you’re just looking through Pintrerest, Instagram, you’re distracted. And you realize that, wow, people are making a career out of food styling as a blogger. So I think a food blogger in the west, like maybe in the U.K. and the U.S, it’s not so much reviewing the food places; like maybe some of the Singapore food bloggers do. So for them, they are more like, housewives, or just people that are passionately cooking, and making beautiful food at home to serve for their loved ones. And then I realized, oh, that is a career I can consider, but maybe right here in Singapore, it’s not so common yet. So I thought maybe I’ll just take a year to dot the proper research, and whether it’s a feasible choice. I just didn’t want to be impulsive and just step out. And then one day, I listened to a podcast. It’s this podcast channel called School of Greatness by Louise Howe, so he invites different people. And then there’s a motivational speaker called Lisa Nichols, so she talks about, if you want to break through in life, right now if you’ve ever thought about it -- if you just keep thinking about, what are the problems that you face right now, and you’re just living with your problems and not addressing them, then you should just do it now. 

Jayce: Right, right. 

Alicia: Yeah, because I think there are a lot of times we get resentful, like ugh, why am I doing this. You just keep thinking about the negative things, without addressing them. So yeah, so then I was at the point where I just feel a bit stagnant. I’m not really sure what am I good at, because we do more -- we have to play different roles in the university. And then I realized, I just want to be building my skills around one area. And then over a year, I met some people, mostly photographers. And then they gave me some opportunities to try out on certain styling shoots. And I would say the blog is a learning platform for me, and it’s like a milestone that exposes my passion and skills to more people, and I think social media is a great platform to reach out to people that have never met you before. But through your living portfolio, you realize, oh, this is somebody that knows -- that aligns with my brand direction, my brand personality, and then they reach out to me. So I think with all that certainty and affirmations, like people -- I mean, they may not be from family, or from friends, but people around you realize, oh, this is something that I can make a living off of it.

Jayce: Yeah. So you deliberately chose to go towards food, or was it just something that you naturally fell into it, because there can be so many things that you could also focus on. Like fashion, lifestyles.

Alicia: I think food is a little bit more closer to heart because I always go back home for home cooked meals. And throughout my childhood, I realized that some food is important to you, like it affects your mood. So even a bad coffee, it affects your mood. How you deliver a pitch, or deliver a presentation, if the breakfast or the coffee turns out to be bad. So I guess that sparked my interest, and that’s more closer to heart. Maybe for fashion, you spend more money, so it’s not very sustainable. And you always have cycles of fashion, but I think food, it’s always staple, it’s always there. And tells a lot of stories and emotions, and that’s where I realized, I want to focus on that. As a lot of people say, just work on food, just focus on food. But food, I think there are so many different types of food. From rice, to like, noodles and Western cuisine, to desserts. So desserts is an area that -- it’s my no zone, because I’m not good at baking. But you see, there are so many different types of dishes across the world, and everyone has their own interpretation of like, noodles. So I think it is still a universe that I want to explore, and yeah. There are days that  I’ll still get inspiration from documentaries on nature. So I think going across different industries, even on like, books. It gives you some inspiration to like, create a dish, or a photo.

Wayne: One question, how is your coffee?

Alicia: Great.

Jayce:  Great, thanks for sharing. So Wayne, how about you. Let’s move on to our industry veteran.

Wayne: What I have to say is she is like, I learn from the veterans. I learn from her as well. 

Jayce: Yeah, of course. Especially from our generation, learning her generation. 

Wayne: Yes, our generation, yes. I don’t feel so alone now. 

Jayce: So what made you decide -- or rather I would say, even in our freelance pool, writers, copywriters, tend to prefer freelancing. For yourself, is this something that in the back of your mind, you have always wanted to do this? Or actually, are there some reasons that caused you to become a freelancer?

Wayne: I think the deciding factor were my books, because the first book was released in 2014, and at that point, I had probably been freelancing for about a year. That sounds about right, probably about a year then. And I was -- I had written the book and I was very happy, and it was a childhood dream come true. So for me...

Jayce: You mean from childhood, you already aspired to write a book?

Wayne: Oh yeah. I wasn’t kidding when I said I’ve been writing since primary three. 

Jayce: And who has been reading your book, who are all of your supporters?

Wayne: Supporters of this book -- no, I didn’t get published in primary three, but I’ve been writing since primary three. Making my own comics using paper and all of that. Yeah. The first major story I wrote was for a primary three competition, where I wrote basically Ninja Turtle fanfiction.

Jayce: Ninja Turtle.

Wayne: Ninja Turtle fanfiction, and then my teacher was like, this is very good. 

Jayce: I spoke of your age already, Ninja Turtles.

Alicia: I know Ninja Turtles. 

Wayne: I was always more of a Raphael guy. But I’ve wanted to write books since I was a kid, and when this was done and I thought to myself, that’s the one thing, it’s done. Good, accomplished. 

Jayce: Checklist, check.

Wayne: That’s the thing though. What they don’t tell you is that the moment you write your first book, it’s very addictive, and you keep wanting to write more and more and more. Eventually, there are times when you literally have to tell yourself to slow down. But after the first book, I had been freelancing for about a year, and I was actually thinking about going back into full time. But then, I read something from a writer. I can’t remember the exact quote. This comedy writer called Brian Michael Benders and he said, one of the most important things you have to do as a writer, as a creator, is to make it your priority in life. If this is something you want to do, if this is something you love, you make it your priority. So freelancing came about -- freelancing became the norm after I published a book. And I spoke to my boss, well boss/friend, and I told him, I can’t take this job.  I’m planning on freelancing, because I want to focus an equal amount of time on writing my books as I do with copywriting and stuff like that. Thankfully, it’s a nice coincidence that my boss/friend also has art in my book. So he’s done art in my book. I keep showing it off as if...

Alicia: That’s okay, you should be proud. 

Wayne: But the way I’m showing it off is like one of those tv salesmen, like if you order now, you can get this. But that’s the thing. So he had contributed art to it and he creates his own stuff as well. So he understood where I was coming from and he said, okay, look. What you can do is, you come into the office -- so it’s freelance/kind of part time thing. So he said, you come into the office, two and a half days a week, the rest of the week, that’s yours, go do your thing, go make more books. And since then, that’s been my norm. There’s always been that core of work that I’ve got going on there. And then for other freelance work that comes in, that stuff goes towards -- whether it’s printing costs when I want to self publish my books, or simple things like going on holiday, or further down the road, I’m looking at going overseas, and going to Comic Con conventions and putting my stuff there. So that’s where my freelance life has helped my writing life.

Jayce: Right. So going back to Ali. So in terms of starting your own blog, starting, I would say, your career, in terms of a food blogger, food stylist, food photographer; what are some of the challenges that you have faced, when you first started this career choice?

Alicia: So I think when I first started maybe in -- okay, so in like January or February -- the reason I quit my job was also because I have a friend who came up with her own business. So she started a business based on meal subscriptions. So she took the idea I think from Germany, it’s this brand called HelloFresh and I think the business model right now. Like people are used to subscription and -- but this whole business came about where you’re a consumer, you subscribe to a plan. So out of four recipes that you want to learn how to cook, you choose three out of four. And with these three recipes, everything will be provided for you, pre portioned, and all you need to do is follow the recipe card. You just follow how to -- technically, you’re still cooking but one good thing is it cuts down food waste. So especially for a young married couple, you probably can buy cabbage, and what are you going to do with cabbage. You just ate half of it. So yeah, I think she approached me, and that is my constant project with her. So at least there is a certainty that okay, I have a monthly income from that; even though it is freelance type of work, it is like a monthly job that I have. And it helps me to fund like some of the shoots that I have just on my blog. And at the same time, I do have some savings, so before I started out, I said, I need to have money. So at least when there are days that are there just no jobs, you can still sustain yourself. And at the same time, I think more people are doing collaboration still. So there are a few business owners, they just came out, maybe they sell groceries online, maybe they sell honey. So I would ask, do you want to collaborate with me. It’s more like a win/win type of thing; you just get better together, instead of seeing it as like a competition. It’s always good to help each other. So through that, I just to get to know more people and...

Jayce: So now, going back to Alicia. Quite interested to find out, how do you actually attempt to actually create a sustainable career out of this blogging, and this food styling kind of career? 

Alicia: So from the start, blogging can be a little not consistent in terms of income. So when I first figured out that I wanted to quit my full time job, after my friend just introduced this job for me. Because she had set up a business on meal subscription, so how it works is that consumers still subscribe to a meal plan. They can choose three out of four recipes, and they can just learn how to cook by following a recipe card. So my part comes in as a recipe developer, and also a photographer, just to take a step by step photo; to guide them, to prepare let’s say, a tomian chicken soup. [ That job is my constant source of income, and that funds me to come up with sometimes collaboration, or wedding shoots or something. Somehow, I’ve met people from the wedding industry, because they always like to do conceptual shoots on top of the day to day wedding shoots. So sometimes, they play with like food styling, and they asked, do I want to come on board. So for that collaboration to happen, because it was just being creative, everyone wanting to be creative. And that collaboration will definitely come out of your own pocket. So this source of income just funds collaboration, because that’s how you keep your passion going. Because over time, you’re like, I’m just taking photos and that’s it; there’s nothing like, oh, I just want a table full of great food. So that type of shoot keeps your passion going, and you meet like minded creatives from different crafts and different skill sets. And I think blogging after like maybe -- to make it really full time blogging just this year. Recently there are more people approaching me. They’re interested to work with my recipes, my style and yeah.  I think because with all these inquiries coming in, you say, okay, I’m headed in the right direction. Because when you’re out alone -- and most of my friends around media have a full time job. So you’re not really sure whether you’re heading in the right direction, until someone gives you some acknowledgement about your work. And that’s when you know that, okay, this is the right direction.

Jayce: Having some validation as well, yeah. So Wayne, having heard what Alicia -- talks about how she actually prepared to go into freelancing. How about yourself, was that your experience?

Wayne: Oh no, no. The first time I went into freelancing, I was young and stupid. Now I’m old and less stupid. 

Alicia: Wiser.

Wayne: Yeah, yeah. Wiser, not less stupid. Yeah. No but the first time I went in, and this is really the case of, you can learn from the veteran but the veteran can also learn from people that are, let’s say, younger than me. But that’s the thing, I went in half cocked the first time. I had worked maybe two full time jobs, and I thought to myself, I’m going to go freelance. And it was a very romanticized idea of freelance, like just sitting around with a laptop. And back then I used to smoke, so a cigarette in my mouth, and a glass of whiskey next to me. And that was my idea of it, I’m going to work from home, the jobs will come rolling in; didn’t save up any money, didn’t have a core piece of freelance business, none of that. Went out there, lasted for maybe like five months. And then with my tail between legs, I just went back to full time work very quietly. Like oh, I guess I’ll go back to full time work. But yeah. I think I needed to go through that, one, because young and stupid people do need to learn their lesson. But then when I came in the second round of freelance, I knew exactly what I needed to do. I needed savings, I had that settled. I needed core work, I was going to find that first, but then thankfully, the stars aligned. My boss was like, I’ll give you some core work and then you can freelance from there. And time management, a lot of that was time management as well. That’s one thing that, to be fair, I learned when I was doing full time. Because I was writing my books full time, and I had to learn how to balance that out. Because you come back from work at the end of the day you’re just tired, and you don’t want to do anything. And to be a little disciplined on that approach was something I never thought I would be. So time management, having that core piece of work, and just understanding what you’re getting into. All lessons that took me about ten years to learn, that you figured out on your first try. 

Jayce: Yeah, I think they’re different circumstances. But I can see that some of your books are very much illustration based.  Is that a deliberate effort by you to do this?

Wayne: I would say not really. Even in the first book, in the first book, I’m just going to show it off a little bit here.  In the first book, it’s mostly prose, so you’ve got all that. But it kind of started -- well, it’s got illustrations as well, but this all happened for two reasons. One was, I grew up reading comics; as much as I grew up reading books, I grew up reading comics. So I’ve always wanted to tell stories and work with artists, whether it’s my prose and occupying art, or comics. So my main goal first was to get my book out, so I decided, I’m going to do the book, but I’m also going to work with artists on this.  And the other -- which brings me to the other side of it which is, I wanted to work with friends, and I had a lot of friends -- I still have a lot of friends who illustrate this. So I ended up working with them to produce accompanying art for the book, and then that sort of transitioned on to me doing, yeah, I’m still doing prose stuff. But then as I met more artists, I started doing comic work as well. So the output started being kind of like a 50/50 split from there. 

Jayce: I was told that you would be actually moderating a comics artist panel, at the upcoming Singapore Toy, Game and Comics Convention.

Wayne: Yeah, that’s right. 

Jayce: So do you think -- because of your publications, that has to do with the fusion of words and illustrations, that caused you to actually became the moderators of the panels?

Wayne: That’s actually exactly it. That’s how I pitched myself. I went to the organizers and I told them -- the panel was specifically called, so you think you can draw; what it takes to become a comic artist. And I can’t draw anything beyond stick figures, and not even very good stick figures. But the panel was specifically called, how to become a comic artist, and if there’s anything I do understand about comics, it’s understanding how to work with artists. And how much of comics is carried by the artists, because it’s a visual medium. A lot of people in comics have said -- debated on which one is more important, the writer or the artist. And the way I see it is, if you don’t want to collaborate with your artists, if you want just full creative control, write a novel; don’t do comics, because what’s the point in working with somebody if you’re not genuinely with with them.

Jayce: Yeah, I think that’s very great examples because like what Alicia mentioned earlier about collaborations. And that’s what we see in a lot of our freelancers as well. So freelancers have very specific skill set, so meaning to say, they can’t be good at everything. But when you work as a team, that’s when miracles happen, creatives are coming, and things like that. So Alicia, I just want to understand how do you leverage on your skills, to actually kind of create your personal brand, personal styles, across your different social media platforms for your craft?

Alicia: So I think through coming up with style and a brand, I think it takes a while to develop earlier. As I said earlier, there are always different kind of styles, like artists, they have different types of interpretation and expression. So for me, when I started, I would always follow -- I wouldn’t say copy, but you just get inspired by someone else’s style. And I mean, we are all different individuals, so whatever you replicate will never be the same, because of the setting, the environment, the personality is different. So yeah, I came up with what I call like a skeleton of my color palette. So I think on Instagram, it’s always nice if you curate the whole feed; so when you look at it, like if someone were to look at it in the grid, the grid style, they’d be like, it looks very similar, very nice to the eyes. So my main colors are like, blue green, a little bit of pink. So just a bit more neutral colors, to reflect my personality, and just day to day. Because I’m not a very loud person, I’m just a bit more toned down, and not too loud. So yeah, and then you need the consistency of bringing yourself out in the market, because there are always people better than you. It’s good that people are always better than you, because you always learn from people, and it’s good to have talented people in the industry. So then, that’s how you -- you draw support, and reference from their work. And I think through all of the resources online, there are more people who are willing to share. So there are so many podcasts right now, and so many online resources where you can just purchase online. Like you don’t have to fly all the way to an instructor’s workshop to take a class, you just watch it online. So when I started out, knowing my brand, and having a background in marketing when I was in Poly, it helps me to learn how to position myself, because you can’t cater to the mass market. We aren’t all McDonalds. You can’t just cater to the young and old. So I think it takes time to realize, I should just stick to this. I shouldn’t be looking at what others are doing, and yeah, it’s nice, because sometimes you need to know what aligns to your soul and to your subconscious. And it’s only lately that I realized, okay, this is how I’m going to do it, and I’m just going to stick to it. So if people like your stuff, people will just come to you. I mean like for Wayne, there are all these different comic styles. So if people really like it, they will just keep coming back for you. 

Jayce: So following that, Wayne, do you think this is actually your style, or how would you describe your style as a writer?

Wayne: I actually definitely agree with you, because when I started writing, I was -- first of all, there was the Ninja Turtles fanfiction. But later on, a lot of my stuff was like -- it was very much in the same vein of writers that I used to read, so your old scifi stuff. speculative fiction, a little bit of fantasy here and there. And that’s where I began, and then my style just started to evolve. And like you said, it’s not -- like every story has been told. In some form or another, every story has been told. But it’s what you bring to the table. So it’s my personality that’s in there. I mean, when the first book came out, I came up with a marketing phrase. I didn’t want to say it was scifi because it’s not scifi, but it’s not like, straight forward literature. So the phrase I used was, speculative fiction -- no, sorry. It was slice of life stories through the lens of a genre of fiction, and I immediately just went, well that’s a very fancy way of saying my stories. But that’s the thing, it gave people an idea of what to expect.  But at the same time also, like you said, staying true to who I am. So that’s -- for me, yeah, you’re right. This is my style; it’s constantly evolving, but from the moment the first book came out, and I was lucky that I published later on in my life, and not in like, my early 20s. Because I was a bit more sure of who I was. And I think in that sense, when the first book came out, I was lucky because it still -- I mean things have changed, but it’s still reflective of who I am. And just since then, there’s that base, but I’ve evolved things since that.

Jayce: So Alicia actually focuses a lot on the social media side and things like that, to actually communicate to the audiences. So how about as a writer, what are the avenues you think are the most effective for a freelancer writer to reach out, to protect your clients, or even celebrities?

Wayne: Okay, from the copywriting side of things, I’m a bit -- I’m in a very weird place, where it’s not exactly old school, it’s not exactly new school. Where, when I left full time work to do freelancing, my starting point. And to this day, is where it’s grown from is, I look back on my full time work, and I look at ex-colleagues that I’ve had, and where they’ve moved to, and I start from there. So I get the contacts from there, and then my contact list starts building and building. And then it gets to a point in time where you get a all, or you get an email and it’s like, I know this guy who wants you to write for this. Or I have this project and you’re perfect for it, just come in and talk to the bosses and all of that. For me, at least for the copywriting side of things, it’s a case of just keeping the dialogue open. Making contacts. I don’t want to say stuff like schmoozing, because that sounds super pretentious. But it’s a case of networking. That’s the best word I can think of, it’s networking, and showing them that you’re genuine about it. You can’t just around like, I’m networking with you because I want a job. I’m networking with you because you joke, and you’ll go for drinks and all of that. But at the end of the day, if they need a writer, they come to you. For the books however, that’s an interesting thing because it’s -- I don’t think there’s any right way to promote books and comics here. So it’s a constantly evolving, constantly changing approach to things. There’s your usual stuff like, I’ll do events at bookstores. So I’ve done events at Books Actually, and stuff like that. But there’s also other stuff, like if you want to sell comics, there’s the comic convention, but there’s also other festivals where you can sell your comics. You look at the international market and see what you can do there. And there’s also other things where you’re not exactly selling your book, but you’re cultivating a culture of reading, and maybe that comes back to you. But like I’ll do -- I’ve done talks in schools before. So institutions international, and i’ve done talks at festivals like the All In festival, which is a focus on young writers. And I go in there and I talk to them about stuff like how I got published, and it’s very specific, and almost like a little bit self deprecating in a way. But it’s self deprecating in a way where I hope it makes writing relatable to the kids. The first talk I ever gave was at St Joseph’s International, and the talk was every mistake I’ve ever made, and how I still became a published writer. And literally that was the basis of it, it was like, I did this and that was wrong. That was bad, don’t do that. But at the same time, the students were looking at it like yeah, I might have made that mistake as well. And you create that love for cultivating and writing in general, and reading. And when I do stuff like the All In Writers Festival. The last -- I did one this year with a local writer, Felix Strong, who has been in the industry for years. If you want to talk about veteran, this guy has seen almost all of it, and he’s still here, and he just released another poetry book. Which is insane, after all of this time, he’s still going at it. And the topic the week of it was failure, and I think that’s important. I think you need to show all aspects of writing, and all aspects of reading, and just create that culture. And eventually, maybe it comes back to them thinking, hey, that guy, he got me writing. And I’m going to pick up his book. Sure. Basically this is just a very long winded way of me saying, copywriting, yes, kind of got it down pat; in terms of promoting my books, I’m still learning. And I think it’s very weird, but the learning process has been very fun for me.

Jayce: So what is the one biggest mistake that you have made?

Wayne: Oh, I have to narrow it down to one?

Jayce: Or the one that’s really like, don’t do it.

Interviewee, Wayne: As a freelance copywriter, my -- the one thing I definitely learned is be prepared, just be prepared. It’s like you said, you’re going to have rainy days, and sometimes those rainy days are going to turn to storms, and those storms last for weeks. And you need to have your savings in check, and you need to be able to support yourself. ‘Cause that’s the whole point of this, to have that freedom and be able to support yourself. In terms of freelance [Inaudible], that’s the key that I’ve learned. In terms of writing books, I think the -- to be fair, all of my mistakes in writing books are more funny than they are -- like my first book, I approached my publisher with literally a full manuscript. And again, I suppose there are different ways of doing this but he was just like, wait, you’ve written everything already, and I was like, yeah. And he was like, alright man. 

Jayce: You mean it’s not done like that, you don’t write first? 

Wayne: There are different ways to do it and different publishers have it. I suppose in a more collaborative stance, what I could have done is like, okay I have this idea and these are the stories and all of that. Are you cool with that, I’ve gotten some of it written up and all of that. But no, no. I went in and I was like, it’s all done, and he was like, okay man, I like the story so why not. So I mean it’s -- there’s a lot of -- actually no. The most entertaining mistake that I made was -- because I have a friend who is a teacher, and he’s older than me, he’s like 16 years older than me. So if you want to talk about veterans. But since I was younger, he’s always encouraged me to be a writer, and he’s helped me. And he knows actually -- well, he knew actual published writers before I was an actual published writer. And I think the biggest mistake I made was not fully understanding the idea of write what you know. And it’s a cliche, but when I was a kid, I wrote some story about a knight fighting against vampires.  And I wrote this whole, big sword fighting scene, which I thought was really good. And I let him read it and he goes, that’s terrible. And he’s like, you’ve never sword fighted before because it shows. I was like, so what I’ve never sword fighted before, when am I going to sword fight. When I showed my friend this, what he did -- and I said, oh, I’ve never sword fighted before, how am I going to sword fight. He didn’t say a thing. He stood up out of his chair, walked to his cupboard, opened his cupboard, and he took out two I think they’re called shenais, those wooden practice swords. And he was like, come with me. We went to his condo, and the entire afternoon, we sword fought -- fought with swords. And by the end of the afternoon, my wrists were swollen because he was hitting me with the swords. He was like, no, no, you’ve got to keep your guard up, watch your stance. And by the end of it I’m like, sweating, swollen wrists, tired, very grumpy. And he was like, how do you feel? Angry. Why? Because you beat me up with a sword. And he was like, yeah, but how did you feel how you were sword fighting? Scared, anxious. And he was like, that’s what was missing. And I think if you’re talking mistakes, my biggest mistake was saying yes to a sword fight, because it really hurt after that.

Jayce: Okay, so that’s one important lesson that we should bare in mind.  But Alicia, for yourself, since you go into freelancing nine months ago, do you see any changes to your lifestyles? What are some of the challenges that you’re still trying to cope with today? 

Alicia: I think the transition is about structure. Knowing organization. There are so many departments that specialize in all different expertise. You have the IT department, the administrative department. And yeah, when you need help, just go to the department and get it sorted, done. But when you’re on your own, you just need to push yourself to go in and learn something, just to make it work. And I think because there is a lack of structure -- people always say that it’s so good, you get to eat whatever you want, work whenever you want. But I say no, I think I miss the structure and how you condition yourself. Every morning, I need to be at this place at 9 A.M. But because you have the world to yourself, you have your schedule without any time management, what Wayne had said, you just don’t know what to do.  I feel that sometimes with structure and when you get yourself busy, you’re actually most productive on that day. When you’re too free, and you’re just like, I want to do this, you can’t be too emotionally driven to do things. Because it’s never going to make you productive, and you’re just not going to be consistent. So I think I missed the structure, and I’m trying to build my own routine, even though I just got up. I try to make myself dress up as if you’re approaching to a job, even though it’s just your work desk. So I read this article about this professional blogger. She said, it used to be a hobby, but when you realize you can monetize it and make it as your career, you need to prepare yourself to approach this as your job. So you need to -- it may sound silly, but you need dress up and sit down with your coffee, and just do your work. And when it’s time for you to take a break, take a break. So yeah. I think that is the challenge that I face, to build a routine for myself. And to be disciplined. And also, I think in terms of -- apart from financial security, it takes a lot of mental strength to be able to get back up, because there are always storms. Like just this year, I lost my grandma along the way. And I think because of the effects, you just let yourself go and say, maybe I’m going to be sad for a while. But when it comes to other people, they just go to work because they have X amount of free days to compassionately attend to this. But they still go back to it, life goes on. For myself, no, I’m just flexible. And sometimes family, they just expect you to be free because you’re freelance. So you’re supposed to be there even though you have things to do. So there are things that you just have to let go, and prioritize family first. And I think it just took me a while to get back up because of course emotionally, you’re down. And I think you just need to get back up, and just keep going.  Because if you don’t work, there’s not going to be any income for you, and no one is going to know, except for yourself. So I think it takes a lot of mental strength, and support. You need a good support system too. People who are willing to know you, and are willing to compromise like your flexibility and your schedules, to keep me going. So I’m really thankful for my close of group of friends, who understand that there are just times that I can’t go out with them. Like I can’t just say, let’s mark this day and go out. But when a shoot comes up, and tomorrow is a shoot and I need that day to prepare. So then yeah. I try not to -- I just try to let people manage their expectations. I think it’s easier to just be honest and say, I can’t really fix a date with you right now, because my schedule is so fluid. And I have to prioritize my career, because I chose this, this is my first priority, and people need to understand that. 

Jayce: Yeah. So talking about family support, did you face a lot of objection from your family when you first shared with them your wish to go into freelancing to be a full time job?

Alicia: Yeah, I think definitely. Like yes, Asian parents-- they come from good intentions, they just want you to be sustainable. They worry like, why are you working 12 hours a day just for your wish, your passion. Is your passion going to feed you, that type of thing.  So I think the whole freelancing, it’s still new to them. And they’re still like, conservative and yeah. I think it took me some time to explain to them, but I realized, because I read this book. 

Jayce: You seem to be reading a lot. Is it a requirement?

Alicia: I think reading helps me. 

Wayne: I’m totally all for this. 

Alicia: I just read more of like the self help books.  It’s more like a guide to you, because I think today you feel a bit more uplifted reading these books. And the people who wrote the book, they’ve been through tough times as well. And they’re just willing to share those who have come across at this juncture of their life. So yeah. Then I realized -- in this book that I read from this lady, she said that every relationship with a person is unique; so you can’t expect your husband to be your best friend, your advisor, your mentor. The person is just going to be there as your husband. And you need someone to understand what you’re doing, to get really a mentor that’s experienced. So family, sometimes they may object to your decisions. But I think you just need to go the person for that relationship that you want to share. So I think with family, it’s just more of the support. As long as they are okay, they have no objections of the work, then I think I just keep that relationship unique, and that’s how it is. Because I think sometimes, we expect our parents to be understanding of this and that, but I think they still love you at the end of the day. If you want to go for a career [Inaudible], you would just someone that really understands, and can help you in a certain way.

Jayce: Yeah, so how about yourself, Wayne? Are you still facing challenges? What are some of the challenges that you face as a freelance copywriter?

Wayne: Okay first of all, my parents were completely different in that sense because they were -- from the moment I told them that I want to be a writer when I grow up, they were like, as long as you can pay the bills. I was like, alright cool, thanks. But my parents were very -- they’re very easy going in that way. They basically said, do what you love, just make sure you can support yourself. That’s the most important thing. As a freelancer now, I still face challenges with time management. There are still times when I -- like I was going to ask you as well. When you wake up in the morning, and when you do your writing for the blog, or you do your photography for the blog and all of that stuff. Do you do any of your work at home? Or do you always head out?

Alicia: So there are times when I just go out. Like from the start, I think the hardest part was the first few months. Because I’m seeing my fiance -- we used to work in the same, we met in university. So he goes out to work and I’m just alone, and I really don’t know what to do. And you get distracted with social media, and it can just go on and on. And then you’re like, it’s past twelve o’clock. Why am I still here in my PJs. So after that I realized, okay.  If the place is not conducive, just go out to a cafe. At least the environment and people around conditions you to, I’m here on my laptop. I need to at least pretend -- eventually pretend, and you just to work. And at least you get something productive out of that. Even just two hours. 

Wayne: Exactly, and that’s what I mean as well. In terms of the time management as well. Sometimes you just don’t want to go out, or it’s raining, or whatever it is. There will always be an excuse somewhere, and that’s what I’ve found. I can write at home, but I produce more, and stuff that I’m actually happier with, when I’m outside of a familiar environment. So I’ll literally write everywhere. I’ve taken my laptop into -- my core work, my boss is quite understanding about it. So I’ll come in, and if there’s no work today, he’ll be like, what are you doing here. And I’m like, I’m writing a story. And he’s like, whatever, fine. So I’ll work on my stories there, or I’ll work in a cafe, or I’ll work in a park. Wherever it is. And I still find that time management is that issue, because there’s that push and pull between time management and that freedom. So there are days when I am not as disciplined as I should be. And I still struggle with that. It’s much better now than it was before, thankfully.

Jayce: Because you’re more mature? 

Wayne: Wiser maybe, but mature, that’s a flexible term. I find that getting the momentum has helped. So say for my books, once the first book was out, just keep going and going. And you don’t want to stop. And it’s a weird thing, because as much as you don’t want to stop, there are times when you kind of do for a while. Because my friend, the guy who beat me up with his swords. We were just talking about this and he was laughing when I told him, oh yeah, I think I’m going to be taking like a two week break this year. And he laughed, and I was like, what’s so funny? He was like, that’s what you said two years ago, did you take that break? I was like, no. And he said something that made a lot of sense to me. Writers write about the world, they write about people. They write about humanity. And if you’re just writing, what are you going to be writing about, writing? So there’s that push and pull of doing the work, but also at the same time, finding time to go out there and live beyond the keyboard. And I think that’s a struggle. There are also just times when I spend way too much money on vinyl records. So yeah, that would be my guilty spending. I’d be like, I really shouldn’t have done that. But yeah. Of course there’s always going to be the financial side of things. Sometimes I just cheat a little bit. But mostly it’s the balance that I still work on, from both sides. 

Jayce: Right, right. So now, having experienced this career path. So what is some of the advice that you would give to a freelancer? Maybe Alicia can go first. What are some advice that you would give to freelancers who are just starting out? What are some of the important things that they must take note of, before they actually start their career?

Alicia: I think the first thing is you have to be patient, and a lot of times, you cannot expect things to just come back to you quickly. So right now, I’m still learning how to be patient. Sometimes emails, everyone is going to be busy. So you can’t expect like, I look forward to your reply, because the person is just going to reply the next minute. So I think for that, you also need to factor rainy days, so you need money. Because it’s always going to be a stress factor in life, because you need to pay bills, and without money, you’ll be stressed. And everything just disrupts your whole lifestyle. And at the same time, you need to -- I think health is super important when you’re a freelancer because you are not -- your medical bills are not paid for, and you really need to take care of yourself. So I’ve been trying to keep myself healthy by sleeping seven to eight hours a day, because I think sleep is important. 

Jayce: That’s something that you mentioned before. 

Wayne: Yeah, yeah.

Alicia: It’s very important, so health and fitness. I think this is the baseline of every successful person. I think if you don’t take care of yourself, and when you have problems, your focused on your pain. You don’t have the energy to work on the real things that you really want to do. So I think being a freelancer, you just need to be patient, and hard working. Yeah, just meet new people.  Just go out there and experience things. People are always like, you can keep producing stuff, but I think if you don’t slow down and just realize where I am now. Why am I doing this. I think sometimes it’s good to just slow down and think about what you’re doing and why you’re doing this. So I think it’s more like personal wellbeing that is very important as well. 

Jayce: Yeah, I think that is very interesting -- I think that is very important, because I think a lot of people, when they talk about freelancing and all of that, they all see the good side of it. But a lot of people, they don’t really go into the negatives.  Like what you said, the feeling of the other side of the career. So it’s important for us to take a look at that. And mental well being is definitely very important. Even for salaried employees and anybody like that. So we do have cases where some of our veteran freelancers after a certain point, they’ll just this depression. It’s like, people count on this for so long but the why, like why am I still here and especially for creatives. Where they don’t see the progress in their career. Again, they fall into this whole depression state and all of this. So I think that is very important.  But what are some of the measure that you put in to actually take care of your mental wellness? Do you have any secrets for us?

Alicia: So recently, I learned how to meditate every morning. So I just came back from a trip in Phuket, me and my fiance. So in that trip, they taught us how to do like proper yoga. Just simple stretches in the morning, just to prepare yourself. And then meditation helps, because it helps you to reflect. What are you going to do today, recognize your thoughts. Because our mindset, like bombarded with different thoughts every day, feelings and everything. So I think meditation helps you to calm down, and to think about, okay, what are the things I need to do. Are there recurring thoughts that have always been there, but you’ve never addressed it? So I think meditation, and breathing helps. Sometimes there are days that I just get anxious. And then I guess with meditation, it helps you to be more conscious with your emotions, and you won’t snap at people. Like subconsciously in that sense, we do get snappy with people, we are very comfortable with people. You know they’re just going to love me and not leave me. So yeah, I think with meditation, I realize that there are days that I feel the frustration myself, and you just don’t know why. It’s not like you have a bad meal, or like you’ve done something wrong; it’s just that anger, that you can’t produce things. Everything you’ve written is like [Inaudible] backspace and everything you do is just wrong. So I think through meditation and breathing, and having proper sleep. And having regular meals are very important as well. So I think through that. I think the whole -- I think you need to have a good foundation your daily routine so that you can go further. I always tell myself it’s not a sprint, because you will get burned out. You need to take breaks in between. And when I realize oh actually, I’m better this time after a break, and then you’ll be more inspired to carry on. 

Jayce: How about yourself, Wayne? What advice would you give to someone just starting out? 

Wayne: No but that’s the thing, she’s absolutely right. Okay yes, there is mental well being that’s very important. And I’ve actually learned that quite late in my freelance time, honestly. Because the first few years were just… and these days, I do take time to -- I go for walks every week with my girlfriend as well. And I even tried meditation at one point. And stuff like that. And I think to tie into mental health, aside from make sure you get eight hours of sleep. Which again, I’m also guilty of not doing all the time. But I think what I find is, have an outlet aside of what you do. Not everyone is going to have a job which they’re super passionate about; sometimes you just need to do the work. There’s nothing wrong with that. Sometimes you just need to do the work. Writing stories, writing comics. That used to be my outlet. But that evolved, it’s no longer just oh, I can just write it for myself and that’s it. It’s a different facet of me that I put out to the world, and I want to be the best that I can be.  It’s no longer just whatever I want to write, I’ll write. So I find other things. I’m far from the best photographer in the world, far from it; don’t have a camera, use my phone, that kind of thing. But it relaxes me to go out and take photos, and that’s my thing. There’s no pressure on it, I’m not selling this. So have -- I think to tie into the idea of mental health, have an outlet. Have not just your job, but have stuff that you’re passionate about, and have that additional outlet as well. Just lead as full a life as you possibly can, and whatever you can afford to do. And I think that really does help with your mental health as well.

Jayce: Right, great. Okay, thank you so much for sharing, Wayne and Alicia. But before I let you all go, I have one last question that I would like to ask you, which we ask all of our guests in previous episodes. And the question is, if you could give one piece of advice to your younger self when you were just starting out, what would you say?

Wayne: You go ahead. I was about to say, my answer would be really short. If I could give one piece of advice to my younger self.

Jayce: Yeah, what would that be. What would you say.

Wayne: Enjoy the moment. I think whether it’s anything that I’ve done in freelance copywriting, whether it’s my books. You’re so concerned about everything that’s going to happen, or everything that you’re doing at the moment; that I look back at when my first book came out, and I was ridiculously happy and everything. But also, that emotion was mixed up with, oh okay, I’ve got to promote the book. What about my second book. I want to do comics as well. It’s an excitement, yes but at the same time also you’re thinking to myself, will my book do well, will people like it and all of that. And I saw something that this author, Delilah Dawson recently tweeted and she said, manage your expectations of your first book, it’s not going to be a bestseller. Chances are, it’s not going to be a bestseller; chances are, it won’t get pushed, chances are, if you’re lucky, a couple people read it and that’s it. And I had all of these expectations of myself, I had all of these grand plans, and all of these things that I wanted to do, that I stopped -- that I didn’t take a moment to stop, on that very first day that my book was in stores, and go, that’s me on the shelf, that’s my name; I did it.  And I think that’s the piece of advice I would give to my younger self. Make sure every once in a while, you stop and you take stock of how far you’ve come, and quite frankly, especially in my case, how lucky I am. That in all of humanity, I’m alive at this time, and I have the opportunities I have to make books, to make comics; to do what I love for a living, really. 

Jayce: Right, Alicia, how about yourself? Not too long ago.

Wayne: Two weeks ago. 

Alicia: I think just be yourself. Stay true to yourself. Along the way people are going to disagree with what you do, and you just need to know that you can’t please everyone. And there are times where people come in and out of your life, and that’s okay, because what matters is the people who stay with you right at this moment. And just be grateful for what you have. Like what Wayne said, that you’re able now, you’re lucky that you get to do this, and you’re still going strong and going forward. So I think just be true and just let nature take its course. 

Jayce: Great. Thank you so much, thank you to Wayne and Alicia again. 

Okay thank you for tuning to another episode of Freelance Creative Exchange. Subscribe to iTunes and leave us a review, and also subscribe to our YouTube channel and leave a comment, because we want to hear from you what you think. Let us know your questions or from the freelancers you want to hear from next. Follow us on Creative At Works on our Facebook page and Instagram. Join us next time for a brand new episode of Freelance Creative Exchange.  Until then, I will see you. But before I will go, maybe Alicia, you would like to share with us your Instagram tag or ID, or something like that?

Alicia: So my Instagram handle it’s poutandchow. 

Jayce: Right, how about Wayne, I’ll show your books again. 

Wayne: Yeah, very important. Look at all of my books and all of my comics. But if you’re looking for where to find me, the place you should go is waynereewrites.com. 

Jayce: Right. Thank you so much, bye everyone.