How Blockchain Is Changing The Way Videos Get Monetized

How is blockchain changing the way the way we look at advertising and contracts? What is its potential impact on the Singapore media industry? This week we speak to VIncent Lim, a media & entertainment Maverick about how his video-sharing app is using blockchain and cryptocurrency to change the way videos get monetized and connecting brands and influencers directly. He is also the CEO of Fanfare Global, the world’s first Blockchain-Powered Social Commerce Community

Jayce: Hi everyone.

Vincent: Hi.

Fanny: Hi, I’m Fanny.

Jayce: I’m Jayce.

Fanny: Welcome to Freelance Creative Exchange, where every episode, we speak to a freelancer about freelancing in the gig economy.

Jayce: And today, we have someone very special with us today, and he is Mr. Vincent Lee. 

Vincent:  Thank you for having me, ladies. Looking good.

Fanny: He is a media and entertainment maverick. He is also the CEO of FanFare Global, the world’s first blockchain powered social commerce community. 

Jayce: So maybe you want to introduce yourself to our audiences here. 

Vincent: Wow. Okay. I wasn’t formerly trained in media, I think most people who know me know that; I graduated with an honors degree in zoology, that was in ‘94. And my first job was actually with SBC. I went in and thought I’d try something different.

Jayce: Sorry, SBC means Singapore Broadcasting Corporation?

Vincent: Yes. Okay, now you know my age. So I was with SBC. Started out there as a writer, producer, and then I moved on to direct dramas, like Growing Up, Triple Nine. Evergreens. Yeah. So that was where I started, and I loved it. I love production, I love the energy. I loved that you could always create something out of nothing, and that is the beauty of being in the media industry. Every day is different; you don’t come to the office to do the same thing over and over again. And that’s why I stuck to it. But after that, I had a short stint at the Singapore Tourism Board. And then I realized that my love was still with production. So I left the civil service, ventured onto my own, against the wishes of my entire family. Started my own little production company. It was small, it was hard work. I started off working in my bedroom. I bought a computer to edit projects. It was still beta. So I had to rent a beta deck, had to lug it home. I had to plug it into my computer every time. Plus it was expensive, it was like 150 dollars a day to rent a deck. So you can rent it for home.  But you can’t buy it, was like almost like 30,000 dollars. Nowadays, you can shoot on DSLR, on the cards, you can just shoot; in those days, we had to plan our shoots, because we were using tapes. And tapes are expensive. One tape was like 15 dollars, and they come in a deck -- in a box of ten. And sometimes they run out of stock at the shops you go to, so you have to be very careful how you use those tapes. And you could use most of them two or three times because you can use it. But we tried not to, because they could drop out. Another is drop outs, it’s basically a scratch on your tape. You shoot everything in this particular scene, and then it’s a scratch on your tape, and you can’t use it. So those are the days of the analog days. And then when the digital revolution came, it was a whole new thing for us veterans; we got to relearn, had to embrace technology. Even the editors, back in SBC, they had to learn . No, the other one. Avid. When Avid came -- so it was like this huge rack of servers, and computing power, the monitors were huge, and for once, we understood what is non linear editing. Non linear, which means you can shift your shots.  In those days, when you were doing editing, it was analog; which means you would edit a one minute montage, [and] it would take you three days. Because you’ve got to capture that frame, and you’ve got to stop it at -- you go to the editing suite with like 30 tapes. You’ve got to know which time code is the particular shot that you want to add. So we were piecing shots together, it was very tedious. So doing dramas was tiring, because after the shoot each day, the directors had to go to a viewing booth in the station, and we would watch through each tape. And we would tell -- we would list down the shots that we wanted. It was very painful. Now, it’s so easy. Technology really helps to advance production. But what I see in the older generation, where our shoot ratio was lower. Which means for every meeting on screen, you need to shoot only three minutes worth. Nowadays, it’s just freeflow. You just roll, the camera doesn’t stop, there’s no cut point. You don’t plan your shots. You just go on location and say, I think, I think. So in those days, we were shooting 17-20 scenes a day; that’s no joke. So that was a -- so technology is supposed to help, in one way, but there’s also a counterproductivity on the other side, because we tend to get lazy. 

Jayce: Yeah. So in terms of skill sets, do you see a difference between the analog days and the digital days? Is there some skill sets that have actually been lost? 

Jayce: I think creativity doesn’t change in terms of how you plan for a story, how you tell a story, how you light. I think the only thing that hasn’t changed probably is your lights. But now, you have these LED lights, they are so easy to carry. You were carrying like very strong loads of light. It takes almost two hours to light up a scene. Nowadays, we just throw a few LED lights. But I guess maybe the younger generations are getting a bit more creative. In those days, back in the old days, we weren’t really allowed to play with shadows; everything has to be bright. So you go to a studio, it’s a house scene; the whole house is bright. It’s like bright, that’s it. Where is there a light panel -- no, it must be bright. There cannot be a black shadow behind the cabinet. Yeah, but not put a little light in the back. No shadows at all. Like no shadows on the wall, no shadows on the floor.

Jayce: But that’s the standard then, right?

Vincent: Yes, that was then. So I hope they have changed, I think they’re huge in terms of technical execution. But I think because of the digital revolution, it has allowed content creators to -- they’re not worried about a lot of the technical aspects of production. It’s a skill set, but it’s like driving. Nowadays, everything is auto car. So why do you need a six shift ? Is that a skill that you need to have? 

Jayce: Yeah, exactly.

Vincent: Do you need that skill set to learn how to dial a telephone. So certain skill sets, we were doing the actual phone machine. I don’t think we need that skill set anymore. Which hole to put -- that’s not important. Nowadays, they just Airdrop your shots into your laptop.. [ So it’s efficiency, so you get to spend more time being creative. I think that’s -- and you can probably spend more time thinking how you can make this thing work better, without carrying too much equipment. I think that should be the future; I think that’s what’s happening now. I mean, I see productions happening with like, just two LED lights, and cameras . Like the Sony S7, it’s really powerful. Beta cameras, you can not fit a prime lens, everything reflected. That type of thing. So now, you can explore. And back then, we were trained in the station to look in the room and everything, there’s no negative space. So now, you’re allowed to experiment.

Jayce: What do you mean by negative space? Oh, nothing. So it can not have nothing. 

Vincent:  It’s probably like -- the camera -- the director is allowed to not follow the conventions of production. But nowadays they are allowed to...

Jayce: Move around, have different shots. 

Vincent: So the conventions of a shot size has changed. I think that -- I remember the MTV generation when it came out. There was duck shot, there was tip shot, there was jump cuts. It was like, can we do this, and no, no jump cuts. But they did it on MTV. But that’s MTV, we’re not MTV. We’re SBC, okay. But people were...

Jayce: The youth tend to...

Vincent: At that time, the MTV style, it was something refreshing especially bursting out on the scene, rock n roll and MTV came out so it was like, oh, we can try these shots. So then, we became TCS, we went off to experiment a bit more, because we privatized. TCS is Television Corporation of Singapore. It was when SBC became a privatized corporation.  So we were not really a government station, so were allowed to be a bit more -- so I remember SBC, we had ra-ra show and we had cross dressing, and they were like, slammed by the politicians. Sorry. But then, TCS was really -- there was a change; we were allowed to be more creative, and have more freeplay in the kinds of shots and...

Jayce: And more channels, right? TCS is the predecessor of Media Corp in that sense, right? 

Vincent:  Yeah, so after TCS, then MediaCorp. The only thing that wasn’t in was that was before SBC. 

Jayce: In the production media space. So back then, do you also already hire freelancers already back then, or everything was done in house?

Vincent: when I first started.

Jayce: So actually, freelancing has been an old trade in the media industry.

Vincent: I think even when I first started as a company -- the company was meant as a building process -- as a building entity. I mean, it has no track record. So literally, you’re there as a freelancer. You go and you pitch to the client as an individual. Because when I left Media Corp, and left SBC, the industry was just beginning. All of these small, little companies were coming up. Producers, directors that left the station. I think  also released his first batch of at that time. So we all are really like green hands in a blue ocean. It’s like, okay, and the station is like, okay, we have this exodus of talent; we might as well just outsource to them. So it was easy to pitch them, because the commissioning editors were all your friends, and they trust that you can produce something of the caliber and the quality. But okay, now we’ve commissioned a TV series, what do you do? You need a team. So the freelance market was also pretty small back then, 20 years ago.  build a petition, that you’re trustworthy, of integrity. So I remembered -- I’d fund all the productions first. So I remembered after each day of shoot, I would pay all of my freelancers on the spot. 

Jayce: As in bring cash and...

Vincent: Bring cash or check and do it on the day, because I was a nobody, and needed to. So I created a reputation that I would pay my freelancers on time. I started off like that as well, I wanted to be paid by my clients, but I felt the first thing to do is to build relationships and friendships, I think that’s really important. If you see a freelancer as just an outsource end, then they’ll just give you what is necessary to do the job. But when you establish a relationship, a friendship, then they’re not doing this as a job; they’re part of the project with you. They want to make sure you are successful, because you will continue. And then we have our casual gatherings . I want to make sure that meals are catered meals, not , rice. No, we go to a restaurant. But in those days, budgets were bigger. I mean for a corporate video, you could easily charge 80,000-120,000 dollars, back then, 20 years ago. Because we’re shooting on , and there was no entry.  And the barrier to entry was very, very, very high. So when you go and pitch to a corporate -- there were very few players, there were very production houses back then, literally; it was easy to go in and all they want to do is they just want to see your show. Of course, we start showing. But preview was painful, because we didn’t have laptops to show. We had to put it on a VCD, videotape. A VHS. We were shooting clients on a VHS, yes. 

Jayce: Any changes there, that’s got to be a very tedious thing.

Vincent: It was quite tough. But it was corporate clients. Corporate clients, again, would pay 80,000 dollars for corporate. So it was easy to -- I’m not sure how much the rates have changed, but I remember cameramen back then was at least 250-350 a day. 

Fanny: Slightly higher, but not much.

Vincent: But it was all of us who were carrying the huge beta camera. And as we’d do a swing shoot, they’d swung the camera across . We only had a dolly, which is tracks. So we tried not to use dolly shots, because it’s expensive to rent. If you have a dolly, it’s easier to rent a truck.  increase of cost. So we’d usually be trying not to -- try to use a very stable trolly for a shot . Or if you’re a very, very strong and a steady cameraman, he’s able to swing -- because is very steady. So you have this illusion of a dolly, if it’s good, yeah. But also I miss those days, because in the industry was just starting. There was no more monopoly. Previously, all broadcasting was done by the station. And all of corporate work was done by ad agencies.  You have very, very high end production companies that were doing it, there was really no local companies. There was Yara, there was , there was all of these big names. To do a corporate video was like 250,000 dollars, and they were shooting on film sometimes; nobody thought of shooting corporate videos on beta videos and stuff like that. So when we came out -- so a lot of the freelancers were all coming up as well. They were all coming up. Like zero experience when I was working with people, like can you give me a chance? We all learn together.  So back then -- I’m still in touch with some of them today; they’re still freelancing, but they’ve moved on from camera assistant, now they are DOPs after 20 years. Like what, you’re a DOP? You cannot see them as a DOP, because they were just pulling cables and getting back then. But I guess every one of us matures, and we definitely get better over time. So the freelance marketing was booming, everybody was helping each other. I think when we were coming up -- because budgets were bigger, and coming up. We started the business, we started with some cash.  So we were able to fund some of the programs. And like I said, our budgets were bigger. Down the line, I don’t know what happened; budgets got slashed. 

Jayce: And also I think because of the competition to started to be more -- more and more people start to come into the industry.

Vincent: And it’s very -- like cutting each other. I think back then, we were more -- we we willing to spend on the craft. If we did an extra audio shoot, even if it did  into the profits, we would do it and it was -- but make sure that everybody gets paid. Make sure everybody is taken care of, because I came from the station, so I knew what it was like to work as a team. So when I got on set, I see it as a team. Not as, you’re a freelancer, I pay you and you  there for me. It’s like, let’s get this shot and done. And I’m not so sure about the new generation of freelancers, but the freelancers I worked with 20 years ago, they were all very dedicated. They were not just crew, but they were my solution providers as well. If there was noise or audio, they were just so many  he would hear sound -- like wait, stop. There’s a sound somewhere. Take off your earphones, do you hear it, yeah, I hear a buzzing sound. It will come out in your shoot. I think it was 10, 15, 20 minutes. You will climb here, climb here. . Okay, we can record now. But yeah, nowadays, I don’t know whether they do that. Now, it’s fixed , yeah.  But in those days, everything is fixed on set, on location; the lighting, the DOP was like, okay, what color do you want the scene, we will light it to this. But literally in the set, you have no place to move because there were lights everywhere, there were cables everywhere. You don’t do anything post; literally post was just to edit the shots together. Post was .

Jayce: The process, not so important.

Vincent: Yeah, two or three days you were done. And then -- because sound was really perfect. Just add music, and do an equalization, and that’s it. And add sound effects. Sometimes you’re so quiet you’ve got to add noise to yourself, because we’ve got to add traffic noise, add sound of crickets, because the sound was so clean. It was deafening, literally.  So that was a skill set. I think that’s the other thing about having digital editing. You can add a flare, but here, when -- in our time, flare was literally shot on set, we create the flare. We shoot it and put the right cuts in, we get the flare that we want. It’s not cheating, it was literally skill of the DOP and the skill of the crew to get what you want. But I think having lower budgets now, probably forces the team to think more creatively now, how to achieve the kind of look that you want of technology. I think that’s the progression I see. Last time, we had all of this and no equipment -- that was all we had to use and the team, the crew used whatever was available back then. Not technology, but really -- we don’t have these cameras.  Studio recording was literally cameras but I think we’ve got to move on. We cannot think, oh, that is how it was done before. We don’t do buildings how we did 2000 years ago, using 4000 men to push a rock up the mountain. We used cranes, we used whatever. So we have to embrace technology to move forward, that’s how we progress. So likewise, that’s where I am. I spend the bulk of my life making professional content for stations, for corporates. Fanfare, it’s also content, but it’s user generated content.

Jayce: Yeah, I think that’s also interesting because there’s when we talked about how technology has affected the whole production industries, and the freelancing scene back then. So what made you actually move -- or set up Fanfare in that sense, and how do you see it affecting the media industry? Would it be the next digital transformation for the industry? 

Vincent:  We used to generate content -- it’s not something new, it’s been around for at least the past ten years as well. With the arrival of YouTube and all of the social media channels. I think it’s again -- from looking at the point of the monetization area -- because now your production is done by one person. Previously, it was a whole team, whole crew; so now, your content creator is the freelancer himself, or herself. So it’s a one man or one woman show. He or she comes to the script idea, goes to the location, records the sound, all by themselves because no one is  him or her. They have to do the content. So she’s one freelancer, one big freelancer. The only problem is, when you post these videos on YouTube, if you don’t have a strong following, you don’t get anything in return. You’ve wasted all your time. And how many of these good content creators can you lose, because I’m always an advocate for good content. So we look at it, and if you post on Facebook and it goes viral, it goes on Instagram, it goes viral. But the social media platforms are monetizing this, they’re putting ads. They’re charging the client , but they’re not channeling this revenue back to you. So I think we need to do something because if not, we lose a whole generation of good content creators. So we cannot be a social media platform, because then we’ll just be like them, and we look at it as -- we need to tie it with something bigger. And we look, and we realize that these two big industries are social media and ecommerce. They are literally merging, the two big industries. If you know your days of your  and your days of Nokia, we carry two of these devices, but we didn’t know that one day these two devices would merge into the smartphone. And this is what’s happening. So social media and ecommerce will merge to form social commerce. It’s happening, but Facebook puts social commerce as a subset, because they are a social media platform, and their main social revenue is advertisements. So they cannot say, we’re going to change our platform to social commerce, they can’t. And ecommerce people, they still get the influences to market products, but they cannot say that they are influencing the platform because they are ecommerce. So what happens, they are in a dilemma. They cannot change their DNA, and they have limitations. So we came up, and our whole DNA, our whole building block, is social commerce from the start. So what is social commerce? Social commerce is when Fanny does a video, she posts it on Fanfare. She notifies the brand by tagging the brand; so our brands who are on the platform sees the video and says, wow, this is a very good video. I will be able to add a buy button to the video straight away. I can tag it to a product, that Fanny shows to . Link it directly to my estore, which means if Jayce watched the video of this blouse that she’s -- and said, I want to buy the same blouse, I can actually click buy straight away. And if you want it straight away, because it’s run by blockchain, it’s run by smart contracts. So there’s no discrepancy, when it comes to adding . There’s no agreements, because once you put it on a platform, you accept the amount that will be paid to you. But it’s paid via our tokens, and the tokens that you receive, you can exchange it for cash at the exchange. Or you can go to the store and buy real world products. So for content creators, that works better, and for the brands, it works better also because if I were to see the same video on Facebook, there’s no way I can contact you. I don’t know how to contact you. Are you a person , would you accept the fee I give you, how long will you let me use the video for, blah blah. But for this, it’s fixed. There’s a duration you can use the video for, and get paid. So if the  want to use it again, it pays you again. . And we allow more than one brand to bid for your video. So four brands can put buy buttons on your video. So let’s say if you do a video, if you are a smart content creator, you feature four brands in a video. Or you feature five. And because you are a good content creator, you’ve got lots of following and five brands want to bid for your video. But we only allow a maximum of four. So the fee , big higher, and they start bidding . So you start creating better videos, because you know that the brands are looking at the videos. And because billing directly to an estore, , people click and buy from your video. So you give order twice. 

Jayce: like the video that Fanny makes, I want to buy it. Do I propose the fee or is it actually all flat? 

Vincent:  No, you don’t buy, you sort of license to use the video; the video still belongs to her. Which means she can monetize, she can put it on YouTube, she can put it on Instagram. So I’m a content creator, so I want to respect the content creators; the idea belongs to you, but you are just licensing. They are just paying you to license that for the duration of time that they can put a buy button to your video.  of a video basically. So let’s say if we did a nice video for Apple, and they can say, I can link it from -- Jayce can buy the Macbook Air, straightaway from watching a video. But the video still belongs to you. Apple doesn’t -- but for Apple, I get to own a user generated video at a very low cost. If I were to pay a company or a professional influencer, there’s no guarantee that it will generate sales that will convert to sales. But here, the risk is on the content creator. But then again, if you were to post the same video on Facebook and Instagram and YouTube, what are the chances of it -- of you monetizing it? So I’m just providing an alternative platform. And because it is powered by blockchain and smart contracts, you know you get paid. If you were to go to Facebook, .

Jayce: Is it a very conscious decision to build this whole platform on blockchain? Do you see blockchain being a technology that is actually going to help to move the media industry into the next?

Vincent: Blockchain has many users and many benefits. Firstly, it cuts off the middle man. So it makes processes more efficient. So if you talk about efficiency in a very low budget environment, then it’s very helpful. Because then, you save time, you save money. [30:50] For example, with very, very simple approval processes, you don’t need -- if the job is done, and there’s a way to make sure that there’s a way to verify the way that it’s done, then it’s a very quick process. IP protection is the other thing that you can look into. There are several blockchain companies that are looking into copyright protection for videos, for content. So that is one way. The blockchain stuff can not store video, because it’s just storing ledgers. It just stores transactions, but it cannot store video. But it can store maybe approval that it belongs to you, so there’s no discrepancy. So once you do this video, and you pass it through this blockchain,  -- and because you can not tamper with the information, nobody can see that it doesn’t belong to you; so there’s a way of stamping, so it protects you. It protects the content creator. So that’s what we see, down the road. A lot of people are asking would there be a way to solve payment issues. That’s like -- I think the issue I see is, who is going say that the work has been completed? Is it the production house, or the freelancer; that is the problem. Because it’s subjective, creativity is subjective. And then if you have a broadcast that is -- if it’s finally accepted by a broadcaster, that is considered delivered. Then, the broadcaster still needs to approve. So that means you still need -- it all defeats the purpose of a middle man; you still need -- so yeah. So there is another company that is doing a blockchain freelance platform, where they have a central body of professionals. It’s like a . But again, it doesn’t make sense to me because then -- what if the guy is your friend? Like yeah, Fanny did the job but I paid her. It doesn’t solve the problem. So the only way we see how it’s done is, the broadcaster has to -- or the client has to put that money in a secure account first. That has to be the way, right? And then once the work is done, the money is transferred. But then again, who is the , who is...

Jayce: Proof that...

Vincent: Yeah. So if you can solve that, then blockchain will be -- but we can’t solve that. Because the project house may say, the freelancer didn’t do his job properly.  And you say, I still recorded some sound, but it’s not up to the mark. Or if the freelancers did very well, everything is accepted by the production house, it came very delayed or .

Jayce: So those are the factors.

Vincent: Those are the factors. So how do we -- so if we can find that sweet spot, which I’m not sure that the current blockchain can, but blockchain is supposed to remove that middle man, that  authority. But because media and content creation, it’s subjective. It’s not like approval, like for instance I like -- for my social commerce platform, I like your video, I want to use it. It’s a straightforward transaction, I pay you  because you’ve already done the work. And as a brand, I pay you straight away, I accept it, because you’ve already put it up there. So the thing might work, but it requires everybody to play ball together. And you will have to use tokens as a way to -- that means everybody is given tokens to unlock the escrow. 

Jayce: Right.

Vincent: I haven’t -- I think even if I had found the magic formula, then I would keep it to myself and I would launch it as my own platform. 

Jayce: But actually another challenge --  I’m not sure if it’s a challenge for a 

Freelancer per se but if they pay in this cryptocurrency is then, how do I exchange it for real cash. Because freelancers need the cash. 

Vincent: There are coin exchanges.

Jayce:  Okay so is it straightforward? You go to a foreign exchange currency, you pay them some money...

Vincent: Yeah, actually it’s all online. You have to create your own digital wallet basically, and then...

Fanny: Link it to a bank account.

Vincent: But most exchanges, they only sell -- they only trade in the recognized coins, like Bitcoin, Ethereum.

Jayce: So how many different types of coins or cryptocurrencies are there? There’s actually a lot. 

Vincent: Yeah, like a thousand, but there are coins and there are tokens.

Jayce: So it’s different. 

Vincent: Yeah. So tokens are writing on -- for example, the Ethereum blockchain allows different companies to create their own tokens on their blockchain. So for them -- Creative At Work could create a creative token for example, writing on the Ethereum blockchain, create on blockchain. That means -- it’s like a clone of the coin I would say. The coin is called a ether coin, but you could set up your own creative blockchain; that means you want to have your own track. So a blockchain is like a train track. On expressway, that all of these transactions can happen.  The coins . So they allow -- so Ethereum has created their own track. You can create a different kind of car using the template and model, but then, you are subjected to whatever...

Jayce: Guidelines or whatever.

Vincent: Whatever limitations or specifications that the chain allows. It’s not a new technology, it’s been around for a while. So  is an issue here. So you want to create your own blockchain, so you create a blockchain and then you have to spend some time to create your own blockchain, and then your own coin. But then -- the problem with your own blockchain and your own coin is liquidity, because if you are a new blockchain and a new coin, you don’t have enough users; there’s not enough trading volume. So even if -- but if it’s specifically done for the freelancers, for the media industry, you might because you’re not just looking at then the Singapore market. There are freelancers all over the world. So if you create a creative -- a freelancer token that the whole world can use it, then maybe that’s a big enough pool. Then again of course -- so you’ve got two challenges. One is you need to convince the entire freelancing pool to use this -- to adopt this, to use this as a mode of payment, or a  of payment. Not just the freelancing pool, but all of your clients. Are they willing to do this because those are the issues that we see. So even for Fanfare, when we talk to the brands, we try to tell them, don’t look at it as cryptocurrency, but look at it as a way of converting your advising dollars to our tokens, that you can rework. So you have the final way to convince the broadcasters that you’re -- the corporate clients. And then of course, then you’ve got find an exchange to list your coins. Because you need a place. If not then, you can create your own exchange. That means your own exchange where those freelancers can go and liquidate your coins. That means there must be a buyer, who is the one buying back the coins. Which means that Creative AtWork now because the central...

Jayce: Exchange...

Vincent: It could be Creative Exchange instead of CreativesAtWork. So someone needs to drive it; a neutral body needs to drive it, a neutral body that is respected by the freelancing pool.  That’s just a thought, that’s a thought. I know there’s payment issues, in the course of my own work, I have also delayed payments for freelancers before, and I know . And I’ve also been owed as well many times. So I know this payment issue has been a long lasting…  Again, it’s about understanding the whole thing because without production companies, it’s very difficult for freelancers to pitch work, because that everyone is to come together. It cannot be us versus them kind of a thing, because once you draw that line, freelancers are by themselves and the production companies are by themselves. Then, it’s very fragmented. It should be the . And we are all together, we are all creatives, producing productions. Good quality content. It’s just that the production house is baring a lot of risk, to take on the job. If the quality of the work is not there, the freelancers don’t answer for it. The companies have to answer, and their reputations are at stake, . So for the freelancer, I don’t care, because there are so many production houses that would hire me. But for a production house, that is their livelihood. [41:30] So the freelancers need to find a way to work with production companies for payments. So I think for commission productions, even escrow would be -- this is what the contraction industry is doing. Because a lot of the developers are delaying payments to the construction suppliers, so they have an escrow. So they’re milestone payments. So you could --  also have other expenditures having to talk to the client. So the client has all of the budget already, then all of the budget can already be put in escrow. And release -- and the milestones are there -- and because it’s blockchain, it’s released immediately. It’s not like I send an invoice and then 60 days… this bullshit is irritating. Like I’m done, I’ve delivered, you don’t -- so I think blockchain can cut down those efficiencies, to prove that the invoice has been sent. 

Jayce: Correct and everything are recorded transactions, so it’s not , it’s straight away.

Vincent: So if you want to, the first step, instead of cryptocurrency in blockchain, it could be used as a way to verify. Because nowadays, the verification processes are there. So invoice can be done by blockchain.  so again, it is up to the client to accept this. to release payment.

Jayce: But do you think the industry is at a point to actually bring it to this level?

Vincent: There’s never a right point in time, seriously. It will just come. I mean digital revolutions came.  just came, DVD, came and left. So when is the right time; it’s whether you want to do it or don’t do it. Because you can always think, maybe next year, maybe not ready. And yeah, then we’re never ready. I think just bite the bullet and go, and you learn along the way. And that’s how you will get better.  And that’s how productions are. You see how it is, it’s so nice. and it was hot. And it would get hot, the whole room gets hot. . 

Jayce: So having run a production house back then, and then versus running this blockchain here. Comparatively, what are the challenges that you face? Is it tougher to run a production company back then? Or is it tougher to run your current, Fanfare? As an entrepreneur, in that sense, or other challenges that are actually different. 

Vincent: I think the question about budgets will always be there; the clients are always wanting to pay lower, and wanting to do it faster. That main problem has not changed for over 20 years; clients are always wanting things to be cheaper.  And they think creative people shouldn’t be paid too much, I don’t know why. I don’t understand. They want you to pay you for your time, and not your ideas; the ideas are for free. Ideas are not for free. It takes time to come up with an idea. But they’d rather pay you for man hours, like physical work, on the ground. Your producer was on the set for how long?  Yeah but my producer does all of the pre-production works. Three months of running around, oh, we cannot pay for three months. That’s the fight. So those unseen, intangible work hours are never appreciated. I think it’s in the education, but they will never accept it. They just see the final price and think, oh, that’s not in our budget. So the challenge will always be there, in terms of -- and your creative team, your production house, will always be having not enough, to do better work. Or not enough to justify taking the job, but they are forced to take on the job because if I don’t take this 10,000 dollar job, So you say okay. So that becomes a spiral down. A lot of companies will face that. If you don’t take  it’s going to take another can survive on 10,000 dollars for a month. So production houses, they’re then not allowed to grow; they will always be a particular size, and they can’t take on more than they can. Because if they take on, they need to hire more and the next month, if I don’t have it; what am I going to do with my staff? So it’s this catch-22 situation. I’ve been there and I know. I grew very big, and every month, you have to look for bigger and bigger projects to sustain the company. And the painful part is, if you don’t, it’s either the freelancers suffer, or your own people suffer. Because somebody has to get paid, and who do you pay first? And when crunch times comes, then you start cutting down staff. And then you cut down staff, and next month, you get , and then what do you do?  start hiring and you hire. So it’s this -- inconsistency is another problem that I find. So how do we reconcile -- how are production houses able to secure projects, long term projects. It cannot be a monthly thing, a monthly thing is very painful. It’s very, very painful. Because you look at the books -- you run a company so you know. It’s like, oh my god, , out of your pocket. Start selling this, start selling that. . So it’s these things. And because -- as you are right, there are now so many new outfits coming out. And technology has lowered the barrier. Anyone literally can just -- I can do an entire corporate video on a mobile phone literally, it’s okay. And you have gadgets that can . And Airdrop everything to this -- I mean previously when you were shooting a tape, we had to digitize tapes. If you have 30 hours of tapes, it takes 30 hours to digitize; literally, it’s real time.  You can ingest the material into the computer, you convert analog to digital and that’s time, that the customer won’t pay you. That’s editing time, that’s down time, So nobody understands that really. So now, lower entry barrier, so the budgets are lower. So what I see down the road is really -- production houses may have to find a way to get around this . Either they empower -- they create smaller teams, rather than function as a big team. They go to work they cannot have nice offices anymore because it’s a huge . So can the editors work from home, do they trust them to work from home, can they produce from home. in a cafe or a set area -- things are changing. We have to embrace this -- those are the days where we all had . Shop house. . Those days are gone. , you buy them news and free cokes and -- those days are -- unless you have a deep pocket. So you’ve got to move along. Or you look at different ways of collaboration. Maybe create content with freelancers will start owning content.

Jayce: Yeah, I think with YouTubers, even with what you mentioned about . I think a lot of content creators now are starting to look beyond their own craft. We were just talking about a cameraman is a cameraman. So they are very -- they value their craft a lot. But nowadays, people are like, I need a cameraman but I also need an editor, and I also need a producer. So can you do everything. So every freelancer now needs to make sure, I mean based on what we see right now, especially those who are doing corporate . They need to be ready to be multiskilled. And clients will always make the demand to say, can you do this, can you also do this? Might as well, you’re doing this as well. So it’s like what you mentioned in the beginning, you see  doing multiple different roles that in the past, used to be done by two or three persons. So even though the rate per day but actually in that sense, they’re doing more for the 350. And it has never changed for the last ten years.

Vincent: Maybe that’s the other thing that the industry would change, because you used to have a very specific skill set for everything. You need a prop master -- a guy to just do props. You need a PA to buy food.  So when you go on set, there are 25 people on set right. You move to one location to the other it’s like three buses. . So are those days gone, I don’t know; I think they are. So we were advocates of specialization back then, because we felt that we should respect everybody’s craft. A makeup artist is a makeup artist. Don’t expect DOP to do makeup. And then now we are going towards generalization. We are going towards specialized generalists. Last time it was generalized specialists. Now, I don’t know what you call them but basically is that good for industry, I don’t know; you become a jack of all trades, but are you a master of something?  Maybe you should have one good skill that you’re able to do, but then you’re compromising on makeup. So I’m not sure. But then nowadays, you look at the user generated content. They’re more into the storytelling than the technical aspect. [53:08] Don’t get me wrong, there are some very technical productions, if they are done by professional freelancers. So it’s always this part about the creative and the technical. You shouldn’t draw the line. You should try to bring it together. So again, with the technology, Fanfare will incorporate some of this to make the video look better, like filters and everything. But we don’t want to cross -- to make it in such a way that there are -- that reduces technical skills. That is very important, that is still very important in the whole media production.  That’s why Hollywood is so viral, because they are specialists. Of course, they have the budget, 150 million for a shoot. So it all boils down to really budgets.

Jayce:  So for freelancers right now at this point, for the media industries, do you think it’s important for them to know the new technologies, like AI, blockchain. Or do you think that it’s not actually , they need to focus on their craft and understand the change in technology that’s affecting their craft.

Vincent: Well, I think they need to know. Whether they apply is another thing. Because it’s like some of our , I don’t know how to use it. But there may come a time when you need to use it for an emergency call.  apply blockchain, but you have to understand enough so that you know how it can benefit for you. For example, if somebody says, hey, we’re going to use Blockchain as a mode of payment or , and they say, what’s blockchain  then you’ll be left out, literally. You’ll be left out of the equation. So you may not need to know -- you may not need to apply any work, but you need to know enough -- you may not need to trade in cryptocurrency. So blockchain and cryptocurrency are two separate things. Just because they’ve been linked now does not mean that they’re together.  is its own without cryptocurrency, so that’s -- what they can do is understand how blockchain can be used. They can actually recommend in some of the processes. So if houses are embracing it, and in terms of production management, it can be more efficient; if you know how to use blockchain. But of course, you need IT guys to help you. So it creates its own -- so your media production may now include a blockchain team in the future . To handle some of the processes, maybe bookings, booking is one way. Issuing of equipment. A lot of logistical processes can really be handled by blockchain.  And then that is a way to counter the lower budgets. 

Jayce:  Thank you. We’ve had a long talk. 

Fanny: But we have one last question. If you could give one piece of advice to your younger self when you were just starting out, what would you say?

Vincent: The advice that I’ve not been given, or the advice I should give. I’ve always been not afraid to try, that’s always been my younger self; I’ve always been a risk taker, I’ve always just taken the plunge. Into things, into the unknown, without adequate research. Without adequate fact finding. For me, it’s always on impulse. If I like this, I just go. So I have been burnt many times because of those rash moments, but I have also enjoyed certain uplifting moments, because I took the plunge. So it’s hard to say. But if I want to give a piece of advice, it’s probably, be a bit more patient. I think now that I’ve aged, being patient, being -- having more EQ would be helpful, especially when you’re in this industry; you’re dealing with people. When I was much younger, I was a bit hot headed.  Literally, and as a young, fresh director -- it’s like you want to charge -- and people that are not following you tend to get very upset and angry. So I think that things get a little bit chill, a little bit more. Life is more than achieving success overnight. Relationships are important. The other thing I want to say is relationships, family. I made a lot of sacrifices when I was starting out. But congratulations, you’ve got a happy family. [58:40] So yes, I had to sacrifice a lot, trying to make the company succeed. So it did reach a level of success, but at what expense; what cost. So that weighing skill is very difficult to advise, but priorities is important. Priorities. So patience is one, priorities is the other, and being a people person. I think those are the three Ps that I might want to add, and that would be to my younger self. I don’t think  but if I had to rewind the clock, maybe things may be a bit different. But I would still stick with the media industry I guess when I started. It’s challenging in Singapore, it’s really challenging, and for all of the freelancers, for all of the content creators, tell yourselves this. You are in a very difficult environment doing production, because our domestic market is very small . But the fact that you can still do quality work, you’re on par with anybody out in the world. You’re on par with Hollywood because they can do big budgets; imagine [that] you can do so much with just this little, how much you can do if you’re given that much. So continue, continue to persevere, continue to do -- enjoy what you like. It’s not a job when you enjoy doing it. And keep doing what you’re doing, and embrace technology, that’s important. Don’t get too fixated on what you’re used to, because the media industry is one industry that evolves so quickly. Transform yourself, I like the word that Jayce has used, transform yourself; just because you’re a makeup artist doesn’t mean you can not do anything else in your field. Learn to pick up something new in the environment, in the industry. And I hope that these payment issues between production houses and freelancers can be resolved; hopefully in the near future, with blockchain technology. If not, maybe some other platforms. And I hope that the industry actually continues to flourish.  And I enjoy productions made by content creators. I sit on a pitch panel myself, so I enjoy listening to pitches. I enjoy actually seeing the final project. The whole journey, it’s very gratifying because like I said, the media industry is the only industry that can create something out of nothing, literally. It’s the only thing that can make a person laugh, cry, angry, sad, at the time, if they’re watching your show. So you’re in a very pivotal position, know that fact. And if you can help make the industry better, then do it. Don’t just sit there and complain. I think that’s the other thing, don’t just sit there and complain. Be more proactive. Don’t be antagonistic . I think always be collaborative. People owe you money, you owe people money, because it goes round and round in circles. So if somebody has treated your injuries with kindness, then do the same with someone else, because it goes around with full circle. You’re never always right. So that’s the parting message I would like to give. 

Jayce:  Wow, very nice.

Vincent: It comes with age.

Fanny: So thank you for tuning in to another episode of Freelance Creative Exchange. 

Jayce: Subscribe to iTunes and Spotify, and leave us a review.

Fanny: Also subscribe to our YouTube channel and leave us a comment, because we want to hear what you think, and then what you want to hear for the next episode. 

Jayce: Follow us at CreativesAtWork on Facebook, as well as on our Instagram.

Fanny: So join us next time for a brand new episode of Freelance Creative Exchange. 

Jayce: And until then, bye! Bye, Vincent.